April 23, 2024
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BYOB: 235 Years Of Relative independence
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It shows how out of it I was in trying to be in it, acknowledging that I was out of it to myself, and then thinking, “Okay, how do I stop being out of it? Well, I get some legitimate illogical narrative ideas” — some novel, you know?
So I decided on three writers that I might be able to option their material and get some producer, or myself as producer, and then get some writer to do a screenplay on it, and maybe make a movie.
And so the three projects were “Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep,” “Naked Lunch” and a collection of Bukowski. Which, in 1975, forget it — I mean, that was nuts. Hollywood would not touch any of that, but I was looking for something commercial, and I thought that all of these things were coming.
There would be no Blade Runner if there was no Ray Bradbury. I couldn’t find Philip K. Dick. His agent didn’t even know where he was. And so I gave up.
I was walking down the street and I ran into Bradbury — he directed a play that I was going to do as an actor, so we know each other, but he yelled “hi” — and I’d forgot who he was.
So at my girlfriend Barbara Hershey’s urging — I was with her at that moment — she said, “Talk to him! That guy really wants to talk to you,” and I said “No, fuck him,” and keep walking.
But then I did, and then I realized who it was, and I thought, “Wait, he’s in that realm, maybe he knows Philip K. Dick.” I said, “You know a guy named—” “Yeah, sure — you want his phone number?”
My friend paid my rent for a year while I wrote, because it turned out we couldn’t get a writer. My friends kept on me about, well, if you can’t get a writer, then you write.”
~ Hampton Fancher
“That was the most disappointing thing to me in how this thing was played. Is that I’m on the phone with you now, after all that’s been said, and the fundamental distinction between what James is dealing with in these other cases is not actually brought to the fore. The fundamental difference is that James Franco didn’t seek to use his position to have sex with anyone. There’s not a case of that. He wasn’t using his position or status to try to solicit a sexual favor from anyone. If he had — if that were what the accusation involved — the show would not have gone on. We would have folded up shop and we would have not completed the show. Because then it would have been the same as Harvey Weinstein, or Les Moonves, or any of these cases that are fundamental to this new paradigm. Did you not notice that? Why did you not notice that? Is that not something notable to say, journalistically? Because nobody could find the voice to say it. I’m not just being rhetorical. Why is it that you and the other critics, none of you could find the voice to say, “You know, it’s not this, it’s that”? Because — let me go on and speak further to this. If you go back to the L.A. Times piece, that’s what it lacked. That’s what they were not able to deliver. The one example in the five that involved an issue of a sexual act was between James and a woman he was dating, who he was not working with. There was no professional dynamic in any capacity.
~ David Simon
TWELVE POWER. Emma Roberts, Esti Ginzburg, Emily Meade = YEP YEP YEP.
Got to enjoy Lollapalooza over the weekend in Chicago – it was awesome! Lady Gaga, Arcade Fire, Phonix, MuteMath, Tender Trap, Metric, Spoon, Devo, too many other numerous bands to mention and some great techno acts. Very well laid out – nice setup of complementary stages, drink stations everywhere, easy to find where everything is with GUIDES everywhere with the schedules of bands and their stages. Truly one of the best music festivals I have ever attended and even the food wasn’t bad.
Though it was hot out, but easy to get and do re-entry. Whta was nice was that I was able to take a few breaks and bike on over just a few blocks to the AMC River East, which now has its ahare of indie movies. Saw The Girl Who Played With Fire – really dug it, even liked it better than the last movie until an ending that just confounds….the movie just……ends. What is it with the Swedish?
The cast it great, but I have to honestly say that Fincher can probably knock these films out of the park, make them tighter and more tense.
Also saw The Other Guys – I really liked it, probably Ferrell’s best work since Stranger than Fiction. Though wow, just like Dinner for Schmucks (which I liked a bit less, though Rudd always delivers the goods for me), the movie was just BEGGING to be rated R. There were ample opportunities for F-bomb-laden rants and scatalogical humor that just seemed a bit watered down. Especially with Wahlberg who can really deliver profanity-laden monologues (The Departed) with the best of them. Was great to see Keaton be funny again, though Steve Coogan was a bit underused.
I hate to admit it, but I actually find the Sucker Punch trailers appealing – I have never been a Zack Snyder fan, didn’t even really like the overhyped trailers for Watchmen or 300. But this thing just looks…..wacky. Basically a wank-fest version of a Terry Gilliam movie. Not sure if I’ll see it, but the trailer looked great – and I’m always a sucker for a great Lords of Acid song, had not heard Crablouse in years.
And am I the only one who finds all of the advertising for Rango completely creepy? I’m not taking my kids to this thing – is there really a kiddie audience for humanoid-like lizards and vultures? I could see it flopping.
Got to enjoy Lollapalooza over the weekend in Chicago – it was awesome! Lady Gaga, Arcade Fire, Phonix, MuteMath, Tender Trap, Metric, Spoon, Devo, too many other numerous bands to mention and some great techno acts. Very well laid out – nice setup of complementary stages, drink stations everywhere, easy to find where everything is with GUIDES everywhere with the schedules of bands and their stages. Truly one of the best music festivals I have ever attended and even the food wasn’t bad.
Though it was hot out, but easy to get and do re-entry. Whta was nice was that I was able to take a few breaks and bike on over just a few blocks to the AMC River East, which now has its ahare of indie movies. Saw The Girl Who Played With Fire – really dug it, even liked it better than the last movie until an ending that just confounds….the movie just……ends. What is it with the Swedish?
The cast it great, but I have to honestly say that Fincher can probably knock these films out of the park, make them tighter and more tense.
Also saw The Other Guys – I really liked it, probably Ferrell’s best work since Stranger than Fiction. Though wow, just like Dinner for Schmucks (which I liked a bit less, though Rudd always delivers the goods for me), the movie was just BEGGING to be rated R. There were ample opportunities for F-bomb-laden rants and scatalogical humor that just seemed a bit watered down. Especially with Wahlberg who can really deliver profanity-laden monologues (The Departed) with the best of them. Was great to see Keaton be funny again, though Steve Coogan was a bit underused.
I hate to admit it, but I actually find the Sucker Punch trailers appealing – I have never been a Zack Snyder fan, didn’t even really like the overhyped trailers for Watchmen or 300. But this thing just looks…..wacky. Basically a wank-fest version of a Terry Gilliam movie. Not sure if I’ll see it, but the trailer looked great – and I’m always a sucker for a great Lords of Acid song, had not heard Crablouse in years.
And am I the only one who finds all of the advertising for Rango completely creepy? I’m not taking my kids to this thing – is there really a kiddie audience for humanoid-like lizards and vultures? I could see it flopping.
Sorry for the double-post – one more thing about Lollapalooza. Great lineup, was most excited to see Lady Gaga and I’m not ashamed to admit that. She’s truly a talented performer, probably the closest we have come to in the past 25 years as “the next Madonna” after a LONG line of pretenders. And she definitely has a better voice than Madonna. But….
Gaga has barely released two albums, she really does not have the kind of catalogue to support a two hour plus set and it showed. Extensive padding and way too much talking in the Babs Streisand “I love how much you love me” vein.
Not many things can bring together movie geeks or even casual viewers of every stripe together in unison like the awesomeness of Michael Keaton.
http://i.imgur.com/JiPqw.jpg
the third facial expression is priceless
(tho the creator of the above really needs to learn how to spell names properly)
Leah, that is damn funny – love the movie, but never thought of that.
i know, i like the movie too but it struck me funny
I’m thinking geeks would get unified with casual fans for suicide girls but that’s just me.]
Geoff, the food wasn’t bad? HELL YEAH! THAT’S A PARTY! I do love Gaga and thank god she played a half-way decent show this time.
“Though it was hot out, but easy to get and do re-entry. Whta was nice was that I was able to take a few breaks and bike on over just a few blocks to the AMC River East, which now has its ahare of indie movies. Saw The Girl Who Played With Fire – really dug it, even liked it better than the last movie until an ending that just confounds….the movie just……ends. What is it with the Swedish?”
It’s probably a part of the movie that’s a close adaptation of the books. Even thought the conflict is mostly wrapped up, the novel ends with a semi-cliffhanger. I remember being on the last 12 pages thinking, “Shit. They gotta’ wrap this up quick.” Better than the first book where there’s over 100 pages to wrap everything up.
Speaking of this series, I saw the first movie a couple weeks ago. As much as art house/foreign fans like to say Hollywood’s putting their polluting hands on it, it ain’t The Vanishing. They drop the context of Mikael and Millennium magazine andh is relationship with his editor. It’s not necessary, but it simplifies other things to the point of wondering if they left this out, why one character is in the Bahamas when the movie’s over. It’s missing information, like if The Silence of the Lambs ended without the shot of Chilton arriving and Hannibal Lector saying, “I have to go. I’m having an old friend for dinner.”
And there’s really not much of a mystery here because they reduce the role of most of the supporting cast heavily. It’s not a surprise the killer appears out of the blue because most of the other characters do. It’s still a good movie, but for its running time, it still found a way to leave a lot of things out.
If we’re allowed to talk DRAGON TATTOO:
Yeah, finally saw it a couple weeks back, and had major, major problems with it.
First off, the leading actor is a DOUCHE with ZERO CHARISMA. Is that guy a big star somewhere in the world? I kept wondering why this internationally acclaimed murder mystery had is its male lead some doughy, Don Calfa-looking bore with all the screen magnetism of day-old dry toast. All the “remakes suck/foreign movies rule!” dorks who no doubt will be complaining from the rafters about Fincher’s remake should drop to their knees in profuse appreciation that Daniel Craig is onboard, because the most apt America equivalent to that TOTAL ZERO in the Swedish movie would’ve been Loren Dean on a doughnut bender.
Also think it’s kind of a flaw to have a “BIG MYSTERY!” where absolutely everything happened 40 YEARS AGO, and thus all the suspects are old, sweater-wearing sadsacks, not to mention all the information gets heard second hand rather than experienced.
But NO IDEA what was up with the last 20 minutes, where it goes on way too long and goes COMPLETELY SOFT, like if Silence of the Lambs (which NO ONE should compare this to– it’s more like a better Da Vinci Code) had ended with 20 minutes showing us what a fuctional life the trapped-in-well chick went on to have after she recovered.
Also the old Botoxed blonde who plays the MYSTERY CHARACTER at the end really sucked and pretty much tossed the entire previous 2 hours down the drain just by showing up.
The Lisbeth character IS phenomenal, and Rapace rocks… but everything else about it would be a mediocre Ashley Judd movie from 2001 if it didn’t have the ACCESSIBLE FOREIGN CROSSOVER HIT! cache.
Lex those are the types of reviews the world needs! That aside, I just thought it was brutal to be brutal and that’s my problem. The wrap up also came across as standard L&O SVU boilerplate and that’s what bothered me. It’s like Lisbeth is caught in stories that she’s too cool to be in and that’s a problem.
IO, any time it cut from Lisbeth out being awesome and charismatic and bad-ass back to Stocky Jean Reno If Jean Reno Sucked, the dropoff in entertainment value was catastrophic… It’s like trying to meld a high-tech MS. 45 with an episode of MATLOCK.
Dude that’s so true it’s not even funny. What really blew my mind? SHE SLEPT WITH THAT BLACK HOLE OF CHARISMA MORE THAN ONCE! Fincher really has to fix that with the remake. Seriously.
i feel your pain but joe straat, isn’t comparing movies to the books they are based on ultimately a fool’s errand, because books are always so much more complex, involved and detailed?
a film can rarely live up to the source material in complexity, and can really only hope to create a new vision of that universe; also, books can develop supporting characters so much more fully to complement the story without such development being at the expense of other characters, whereas on film with such a short amount of time to tell the story, the film-makers must choose which characters to develop and why so that we viewers have reason to root for them; in the case of ‘dragon tattoo’ the choice to concentrate on mikael and lisbeth was crucial, particularly lisbeth, whose non-verbal character development is so important (i don’t understand what you mean by ‘not much mystery’ and the killer appears out of the blue and missing information; i saw the movie – which had a theatrical release here ages ago – before reading the book and i think the movie is pretty clear about all things you’ve mentioned, certainly not as detailed by any measure by i didn’t feel like any information was ‘missing’ and there were plenty of little clues along the way to unravel the mystery)
******** spoilers **********
will fincher have the intestinal fortitude to show the dildo rape no doubt necessitating a hard R? i hope so.
(i for one thought the fellow who played mikael was good, very believable and subtle and lovely, and he strikes just the right tone with noomi as a man she can trust and allow into her wounded territorial bubble)
Leah, I can easily see all of the rape stuff being cut out if the movie takes place in the US. If they are just going to keep the Swedish location and put Americans in it, then that’s epically weird and here comes dildo rape!
my understanding is that it’s still set in sweden, but not certain about that. why does material made for US consumption have to be de-fanged and de-clawed? doesn’t being treated like a bunch of babies bug the crap out of you guys, being pandered to and infantilised? trying to appeal to everyone to make the moist coin is sheer folly. greed is the devil and the enemy of artistic endeavour.
(and i know movies are not just show but also business; the trick is keeping production costs in check, which encourages both innovative thinking and artistic licence, so that ideally material can be both challenging AND profitable)
US isn’t too bad unless it comes to sex or religion – then the various Parent Groups throw their hands up in the air and complain.
It’s interesting to see the various censorship around the world. Germany and Australia are noted for their restrictive videogame laws – Australia has no “18” level classification so anything with nudity, drug references or excessive gore is automatically banned. Germany is even more restrictive in that references to “war” or any depictions of blood are forbidden, which annoys a large number of developers.
On the film front, Peter Jackson’s “Bad Taste” was banned in Australia until 2005, while Monty Python’s “Life of Brian” was only unbanned in parts of Wales last year.
Leah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Australia#Video_games .
I do forget if you are a Kiwi or Australian but that’s a long list of censorship Americans do not have to deal with, but when it comes to the rapes such as the ones in the first book. I doubt you can have them in there without cutting away from them. Those films are unrated here for a reason.
Again, you put a rape scene in the American version of TGWTDT as visceral and violent as the one in the Swedish film, you are going to piss off women’s groups left and right, and I cannot exactly blame them if they get upset.
Seriously, does it bother you that people very close to you cannot enjoy the awesomeness that is Fallout 3 properly?
I actually found the actor who plays Mikael to be quite charming and appealing and he even looks like he could be Daniel Craigs older, doughier brother. But Daniel Craig will kick major ass in this role, the casting is spot-on, glad they didn’t go after a bigger American name like Brad Pitt.
I actually found the plot for ‘Fire to be strong than ‘Tattoo – SP0ILER ALERT
Isn’t the Nazi shit just played out, at this point? That’s part of what I found disappointing about ‘Tattoo. I actually liked the way the elements came together in ‘Fire.
SPOILER ALERT
But that ending….I don’t mind a cliffhanger or unresolved ending. But that movie just….ended. Like they ran out of film or money or something. There was no drama to it, no punch.
And IO, the food wasn’t bad, but the music ROCKED – look, I’m 35 and most of the folks there were at least ten years younger than me. It was a gift from my wife (she watched the kids all weekend, while Daddy got to act like he was 22 again), I rode my bike about 10 miles each way there every day, it was hot…I dig music, but yeah, it’s nice to take a break and kick back and three days of music in the heat can be a BIT much for a 35 year old. It was nice to sit down in some fake Adirondack chair at their “lounge” area for a bit and have a nice Italian beef sandwich. Sorry if it’s not Rock and Roll enough for you, but some of us are getting older and just trying to keep up…..
Oh, and the nicest surprise was Tender Trap – Sweet Disposition (you know it from 500 Days of Summer) is a song truly made for outdoor stadiums. I didn’t even know they were there until I was walking past the area and heard that opening guitar hook.
Geoff, that’s a very nice gift from your wife. That’s pretty cool that she let you go by yourself over a whole weekend to an awesome music festival.
Oh yeah, Leah, if you are a Kiwi, I will give you all sorts of dap on being from a country that has a pretty good record of not censoring stuff. Seriously, that’s impressive, even if your country seemingly disliked All Quiet on the Western Front for a little bit.
We are also not pander to or infantilized as much as we are treated like crap by large corporations and our politicians. It really sucks and if they do not stand up for Net Neutrality, our country is going to suck so hard.
The US is actually really good for not invoking censorship in the traditional legislative sense. There has never been widespread government censorship of films from a federal level. The problem is that American films are made with only profit in mind. Very few films, and no studio films, get gov’t assistance, unlike most foreign films, which are financed by arts-oriented public funds.
And it’s not like I have to explain the stupidity of the MPAA or the fact that studios are forced to censor their films, not just because keeping the ratings down equals greater profits, but also because NC-17 films can’t be advertised in major newspapers or played in major cinema chains.
There should be a law against that sort of antiquated and unnecessary corporate censorship.
Agreeing with some of what lheanz said and applying it here, there was a helluva lotta omissions, ellipses and contractions in the Swedish film. Fincher is not remaking Oplev’s film. So far, Fincher and Rudin and Zaillian have all said that they are adapting the novel. So, I would expect a strong re-orientation in some aspects. But one thing is for sure, one of the reasons why Fincher signed on is because he has an innate fascination with brutality (be it moral or physical) so it will be interesting to see how much of that he is able to retain and depict (and yes, I am talking about the rape scenes).
SPOILERS FOR TGWtDT AHOY!!!!
IO and Lex, if you think he’s a douche in the movie, add in that in the books, he’s something of a “playboy.” He also bags his boss who’s married and the couple knows about it and accepts it, and Cecilia. The reason Lisbeth is in the Bahamas and in disguise at the end of the movie if we’re going by the book is she caught him with his boss (Not fucking, mind you, but doing couple things), and it causes her to just up and disappear. In the movie, they loop it into Lisbeth’s stealing the money . Mikael adds another woman in the second book that is “Whoa. Damn. Shouldn’t that be off limits?”
leah, I’m not normally a person who goes with the book vs. movie stuff, but it seems a lot of the movie was spent doing not very much, which allows the brutality to take over. But since we only see Martin when he’s introduced and when they have that drink right when Lisbeth finds out who he is, we don’t get that deep feeling of betrayal when all’s revealed, but it’s more “Okay, he’s the killer.”I do like that they scaled back his “dungeon” to something more normal and sterile. That actually makes it creepier. But it seems the movie was obsessed with the technicals hows and skims straight over the people.
I too was momentarily startled by the abrupt ending of FIRE, but it’s not uncommon for the middle chapter of trilogies to end on a cliff-hanger to make sure everyone comes back for the wrap-up.
FWIW, Amy Pascal told The Wrap that Sony is not shying away from a “hard R” rating on TATTOO.
Going back to Leah’s Inception funny pic, I heard someone mention that as an actual potential plot hole. I don’t think Caine would be able to take those kids anywhere, because I’m assuming Mal’s mother has custody of them. It’s implied that she’s not on very good terms with Cobb, maybe because she’s not convinced he’s innocent of the murder charges?
So while Caine may drop in occasionally to say hello and bring them gifts, taking them to France (or anywhere out of the country), is probably not gonna happen on her watch.
sorry i obviously didn’t make my point clearly at all before, my comment re: movies being de-clawed for the US market wasn’t a comment on general censorship, rather i was speaking to the re-makes of ‘foreign’ films for the US market often being watered down and sanitised for ‘mass appeal’ (to my way of thinking code for the ability to make more $ by sacrificing challenging/controversial/possibly offensive content); for example ‘let me in’, which i understand has had the gender-bending/pedophilia aspects removed, which made me wonder if ‘dragon tattoo’ will suffer the same fate. but cadavra’s comment above about the hard R sounds heartening.
joe – i get your meaning; as far as mikael goes i actually prefer him in the film to the character in the book, he’s more subtle, vulnerable, relatable and sympathetic imho
(io, really, after all this time? look at the last two letters of my moniker, which i use because ‘leah’ is often taken and for signing in, i can remember my country in my early stages of crypt-keeper memory loss)
also, why would a rape scene piss of women’s groups? it’s the context and how the rape is portrayed that matters, whether the violence is glorified or not, the intent of the scene, etc., not just that rape is portrayed on screen.
Mostly I just wanted to know how she wouldn’t need to go to a hospital for rinsing her mouth with hand soap… There’d have to be trace amounts of that left behind that would make you sick.
Just like my pet peeve about movies where the heroes have to siphon gas, and suck it out some house and invariably get a mouthful of GASOLINE. They spit it out like it ain’t no thing (Cheech and Chong’s Next Movie, Lethal Weapon 3), but you would TOTALLY DIE from even a single microscopic drop of gasoline in your mouth that would make its way into your stomach.
KATY PERRY YEP YEP YEP YEP YEP YEP YEP
YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP
I wish I could be Russell Brand’s dick for 11 seconds.
YEP YEP.
Don’t any of you dudes ever get PISSED like SUICIDE PISSED that YOU AREN’T FAMOUS?
CONAN, WHAT IS BEST IN LIFE?
BEING FAMOUS, FUCKING MODELS, FUCKING ACTRESSES, AND SNORTING COKE.
If you aren’t famous, you aren’t anything.
YEP YEP YEP
HEY POLAND get me a motherfucking SAG card now, buddy.
I’ve wanted to see Killshot for a long time and was excited when I saw that Showtime is airing it this week. However, they have the running time listed as 80 minutes. The studio really butchered this one hey? Anyone see it?
Leah: yeah, there is no excuse for my obliviousness on that one. Much apologies. Having read your clarified point, things do not always lose their teeth when they are remade but the whole pedophilia/eunuch thing in Let The Right One In is sort of not necessary and that’s usually what gets cut. That’s just how we roll and it’s not exactly cool, but I can make do with certain aspects of things for a reason: there’s always the original
Again: we are about making money here but that also led to Inception, so that has to count for something right? Anyone?
That aside Laz, it’s not a plot hole because a dream cannot be a plot hole.
Come on, IO, you think it was a dream?? I have seen the movie multiple times, now, and I just buy the ending as Dom moving on – the main point is that he leaves the top and does not pay attention to it.
Nolan is really having more fun with audiences than most are giving him credit for – that top spinning is just pure mindfuck stuff from him and I love it.
Same with the Bond-homage stuff on the mountain-tops. Does it move the plot forward? Sure, but Nolan has made no secret of his love for Bond and I’m sure his first reasoning was just to do his own big budget wankish homage to On Her Majesty’s Secret Service. And nothing wrong with that.
Do we really think that Nolan is above having fun with these movies or is every one (even his most ardent fans) now so convinced that he’s a super-serious filmmaker?
Not exactly directed at you, IO, and the movie certainly invites a lot of analysis – but I can just enjoy it on a pure fun level, as well, and have no problem taking the ending at face value.
Geoff, yes, it’s a dream from the moment Ariadne tells Arthur that he will be alright. She either created that dream or Cobb created it to get over his guilt and to move on. It’s a dream.
That aside, the reason why it’s a great film, is because it works on multiple levels. If you just want to have fun with it and not look deeper into all of the clues Nolan gives us as an audience, then go right ahead. Why? Because this film is awesome and works for you any way you want.
IO is on Team Dream?
In case there was anyone who was still doubting that he was a damned fool, there’s proof for you.
The 1979 version of Inception: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFkbSAH7yb4
I got the movie THE DISAPPEARANCE OF ALICE CREED on-demand last night and was pretty blown away. I knew NOTHING of it going in except it sounded like a horror film but Eddie Marsan was in it so I thought it probably wasn’t. Then, it started and I thought it probably was then it just got better and better. It was a tad stagy (I’ll bet it was a stage play at some point) but excellent acting, terrific tension and lots of stuff I didn’t plan on coming. GOOD MOVIE.
I want to see that Don. In addition to the awesome Eddie Marsan, Martin Compston is also in it. I love him in Ken Loach’s Sweet Sixteen. Always hoped I’d see more of him.
ARTERTON POWER.
Do they show her feet
Michael Nyqvist works for me in the role, he was also in As It Is In Heaven (excellent Swedish film from 2004) and Downloading Nancy …. but the thing about a American remake is that when Lisbeth turns the tables on her rapist and tattoos his chest we will now see the words in English
Laz, really? Really? The moment Cobb wakes up on that plane, it’s a dream, and the wobbling top is his kick. If you lack the ability to grasp that and that makes me a fool, then you are still the guy who wished Lex killed himself, and that still makes me better than you [thumbs up]!
They show waaaaaay more than her feet. And she’s frigging smoking hot!
The top isn’t Cobb’s ‘kick’, it’s his ‘totem’. A kick is what wakes you up out of a dream.
Did you even watch the goddamn movie?
I don
Geoff, did you catch the New Pornographers set at Lolla? Heard they were great as usual. Pissed I couldn’t make it to their headlining shoe Friday night, or to Lollapalooza. Would have been great to bookend my summer with New Porno shows. Alas, it was my 12th wedding anniversary on Sunday so…
They’re coming back and playing the Riviera in October so hoping I can hit that show, but wonder if Neko and Dan will be with them. I’ll still go. That’s just a few weeks after Nick Lowe in Milwaukee so could be a kick ass couple of weeks.
Would like to have seen Arcade Fire, too. The new CD is terrific. And Wolfmother is a guilty, guilty pleasure. Still love their debut cd as much as it embarrasses me.
Great year for music, shockingly. New Pornographers,NP member Kathryn Calder’s lovely solo debut, Arcade Fire, return of the magnificent Teenage Fanclub, Surfer Blood, Avi Buffalo, Dum Dum Girls, and in a few weeks the first new Superchunk in about a decade.
Geoff, did you catch the New Pornographers set at Lolla? Heard they were great as usual. Pissed I couldn’t make it to their headlining shoe Friday night, or to Lollapalooza. Would have been great to bookend my summer with New Porno shows. Alas, it was my 12th wedding anniversary on Sunday so…
They’re coming back and playing the Riviera in October so hoping I can hit that show, but wonder if Neko and Dan will be with them. I’ll still go. That’s just a few weeks after Nick Lowe in Milwaukee so could be a kick ass couple of weeks.
Would like to have seen Arcade Fire, too. The new CD is terrific. And Wolfmother is a guilty, guilty pleasure. Still love their debut cd as much as it embarrasses me.
Great year for music, shockingly. New Pornographers,NP member Kathryn Calder’s lovely solo debut, Arcade Fire, return of the magnificent Teenage Fanclub, another Robyn Hitchcock disc, Surfer Blood, Avi Buffalo, Dum Dum Girls, and in a few weeks the first new Superchunk in about a decade.
This infernal fucking TypePad and it’s double posting. Apologies, ladies and gents.
Why would anyone EVER listen to music that wasn’t:
1) Metal
2) Rap
3) Country
4) Some peppy bubblegum pop with a cute jailbait chick being earnest and sensitive?
The non reporting of Salander’s rape is based on her desire to both enact revenge on the “shits” of the world who think they can get away with crimes against women (major theme in all 3 books) and also her desire to stay as anonymous as possible. This is something that the movie totally changes from the books. Salander will do anything to avoid contact with any branch of the government (again, major motivator the first 2 books) and is directly tied to her personal history. The way the film “opened” her up and changed the ending to include the police’s awareness her involvement in the entire Vanger affair was kinda bullshit in my books.
While entertaining, I don’t get the massive following for the books or the praise for the film. Hoping Fincher can turn out something a little more engaging.
Lex, you’re a sad person. Stop spreading your disease.
Jeff, I am your idol, and from this point forward you are only to address me as “General” or “Your Highness.”
Jeff, if you were actually a good and decent poster, you would have asked a question before insulting me, but seeing as we are referring to you. Expecting or hoping for a human response is apparently a stretch.
Now, if you pay attention during Inception, you will realize that Cobb’s totem is his wedding ring. It is not his wife’s top because under the rules of that universe, that are clearly explained if you pay attention to the movie which you obviously did not, he cannot use her totem. He can use his wedding ring and he clearly does.
If you also paid attention to the film, which we know you did not, Cobb has his hands in his pocket a lot. Why would he hide his hands? To hide his totem, silly.
Again, pay attention to the film whenever you see it again because Nolan hides nothing in that film, he explains everything, but you have to pay attention. Obviously, the only thing you can pay attention to it your ceiling and your own vanity. You despicable poster.
Finally saw it today, and they didn’t say no one else could use your totem, just that it was a bad idea to let someone else feel it since it is only your special secret.
And I keep seeing the Scott Pilgram trailer and I know this is a grumpy miniscule criticism but why if you were this wispy slip of a guy would you wear clothing that accentuated the fact that you look like a twelve year old? Stupid little t-shirts and a fuzzy collared Parka? I have no idea how old this guy is supposed to be because he is dressed like an extra from My Bodyguard.
Oh yeah Eisenheimer I didn’t answer this part of your little dorky retort: the top falling on the table is his KICK to wake up out of that dream and return to the world without all of that guilt.
The Kick needs to be physical to trigger your inner ear, not symbolic like a top falling over.
I have to defer to IO on Inception plot specifics, but I also have to say I am just happy that Jeff McDouche seemed to actually LIKE SOMETHING.
Will wonders never cease.
Anyone know whatever happened to Emily Lloyd from Wish You Were Here and In Country?
Emily Lloyd in 1993
I need to see Inception again before forming a real opinion on the “it was all a dream” thesis, but…
The reason you shouldn’t let anybody handle your totem is because they would then be able to replicate its unique physical properties in their own dreams, and you thus wouldn’t be able to tell if you were trapped in a dream they created.
Presumably this is not a problem once that person is dead, right?
Zahn: Old-school Emily Lloyd = YEP YEEEEEEEEEEEP.
But google around, check her Wiki, then check the IMDB thread about her alleged rabies infection (WTF?) and general weirdness… Interesting stuff.
I’d like Ellen Page to handle MY totem.
Lex- seeing that they were tiny little knickknacks weighing a few ounces, your totem would have worked in that narrative.
GOOD COMEBACK.
Hcat, the top falling over started to make a weird sound and I take that as being a kick. That’s just me but Ariadne believes he will be fine and tells Arthur as much, and I take that to mean something has to snap him out of it. Why not the top?
Also, again, what happens to Cobb at the end of the film is a dream. Everything else happens but the whole waking up on the plane, not knowing how he got there, and Michael Caine being there to pick him up to see the kids is a dream or at least that’s what I perceive on second viewing.
Eric it’s a problem if they are dead and their death is haunting you. That’s just a guess because there has to be more going on with her totem and how it effects Cobb in the dream world.
I can see a slight argument for the dream, why is Caine in LA, the kids don’t seem to have aged at all. But he was able to reconcile her death and let go when he had his Solaris moment in limbo, saying that his idea of her was a poor subsitute for the real thing, so that would not be the signifier that the end was not real.
Hcat, you are acting as if the two things are mutually exclusive. Cobb’s acceptance that his version of Mal was a poor substitute plays into it being a dream because he got over his guilt and was able to see his children’s faces again in that dream. Again, the biggest clue to that being a dream is what Ariadne says to Arthur on the river’s edge.
i’m sorry, but as a woman i have to say, when it comes to the depiction of sexual violence against women and misogyny on film, context and intent is everything. the sexual violence in ‘dragon tattoo’ is indeed very disturbing and brutal, but what separates it from the typical degrading depiction of ‘women as helpless victims of violence/sexual violence’ trope is that the very damaged lisbeth is the protagonist and we see events unfold from her POV, how she goes about dealing with the situation, using her intellect to turn the tables on her abuser to her advantage. she hates the police/authority and would never turn to them for help. it isn’t pretty, but it’s lisbeth’s story and it encompasses far more than just two brutal rapes, speaking to her deeply wounded but resilient psyche and character.
i think it’s easy to generalise about what women and ‘women’s groups’ think/fight/stand for, but to say that context simply doesn’t matter to women when it comes to violence/victimisation of women on film is a gross generalisation. if some women had a problem with the violence against women in ‘scream’, fair enough – the horror genre has a long sad history of pandering to the male gaze with depictions of glorified violence/sexual violence/victimisation of women for thrills and titillation – and that’s those women’s opinions, but that doesn’t translate to mean context doesn’t matter to women.
here’s what i find troubling: what about violence towards men, men beating the shit out of each other/blowing each other away as male ‘entertainment’?
the expendables is opening and it’s, “yee haw, a MAN’S movie, slaughter, carnage and idoicy, HOORAY! manly men on HGH beating and killing each other – with a virginal damsel-in-distress thrown in for good measure to make them seem ‘heroic’ – fathers take your sons and make men out of them, stupid violence is MAN FUN! christ, this is supposedly what men want to see? what does this macho mindless killing for men say about our culture? god help us all, highly disturbing.
but i guess male violence against women on film is of concern, but male violence against men is fun!
(btw, rabies is FATAL. nobody develops actual rabies and survives, you have to treat it within 72hrs or some such or you’re screwed)
and cobb’s wedding ring being his totem is a theory, not a fact, io
Of course leahnz’s first paragraph also describes “I Spit on Your Grave.”
And male violence against male violence IS fun, one of the most fun and exciting things to see in movies.
perm, comparing ‘dragon tattoo’ to ‘i spit on your grave’ is sheer idoicy
crap, i accidentally posted instead of previewed. you can not have possibly seen ‘dragon tattoo’ if you think lisbeth merely ‘takes revenge’ on her abuser
I haven’t seen Dragon Tattoo. But I think my observation still stands, you could use all of those points for Spit. I have no doubts that Tattoo has better characterization, style, writing and acting…but the broad strokes can be applied. I guess it’s like Ebert says, it’s not what you do but how you do it.
“But I think my observation still stands, you could use all of those points for Spit”
no, actually your observation is invalid, because my comment relies on having seen ‘dragon tattoo’ to know what one is talking about, and you admit you haven’t seen ‘dragon tattoo’. the context of what lisbeth does, how she does it, why she does it, and the outcome of using her intellect to turn the tables to her advantage are NOTHING even remotely like the circumstances of ‘i spit on your grave’ in any sense or form, apart from that a rape occurs, and this fact in common does not a valid comparison make.
why do people feel inclined to express opinions about movies they have not seen? endlessly baffling
Boys Night Out: My son and I had us some beer, ate some steaks, then saw The Expendables. Had so much fun, we decided to do it again real soon. When is Jackass 3Dcoming out?
I never expressed an opinion about Dragon Tattoo, did I? I just made an observation that the specific things you said redeemed that movie can be found in ireedemable movies, speaking of one I have seen so I’m free to opine about that one.
Have you seen I Spit on Your Grave?
of course (the 70’s ‘day of the woman’ one, not the new remake)
and i’m not going to get into a discussion with you because you are often nonsensical when you argue and make up stuff as you go along to support your constantly twisting point, which you’ve already started here.
What do I make up?
Just saying, in Spit we see things from her POV and how she handles it and how she outwits the bad guys and turns the tables on them. Am I making that up?
Leah, it’s not a theory in the context of the movie and it’s not like we are ever going to get an answer from a guy, that never answers questions. Everyone can disagree but the way the world is explained, it’s a very logical conclusion to make.
That aside, your response sort of ignores the Leon principle of life. No women. No children. That’s why women always take the brunt of it in so many genres because it triggers a reaction in men that sort of pisses us off. Why? No women. No children.
Now with men, it’s not that we reveille in the violence towards other men but when it’s clear good guys versus clear bad guys, it sort of works this way: you do bad people stuff. You get the bad people treatment. The Expendables is all about bad people getting the bad people treatment and always fun to watch like Joe and his son did tonight.
And no Perm you are not making it up, it’s very similar, but somewhat different. If that makes any sense.
“what do i make up?”
well, perm, ask anyone here who’s had a disagreement with you and tried to discuss it. you contradict yourself and make stuff up right and left to suit your point as you go along, which shifts according to how poorly you are faring in the logic of the discussion.
and io, wtf are you on about? spare me your chiding tone like i just don’t understand gender issues and your ‘profound wisdom’ on such matters.
“it’s very similar, but somewhat different”
actually, no. cherry-picking for similarities between two rape scenarios with a female protagonist with revenge as a component does not make the films thematically similar. yes, ‘i spit’ and ‘dragon tattoo’ have some very rudimentary points of similarity, but they are far more different in context and theme.
lisbeth’s arc is not a simplistic rape/revenge-on-the-bad-guys scenario, hers is a very specific struggle against the abuse of authority, in particular men in positions of authority over her (step-father, court guardian); her arc is not just about revenge per se, but about using her considerable nerve and intelligence to extricate herself from a horrible/impossible predicament and in the process subvert the system that has her trapped and powerless, securing her freedom from under the thumb of authority in the process. again, this is completely thematically different from ‘i spit’, and any comparisons of lisbeth’s arc in ‘dragon tattoo’ to ‘i spit on your grave’ are lazy and simplistic and really serve no purpose other than to make a pointless argument.
Leah, why on earth are you flying off the handle? Seriously? You are chiding people with your response before mind up above and I responded to it without chiding you when you were clearly chiding me. If you do not get where I am coming from that’s fine but avoid responding like Jeff. God lord there is no need for your response like that but you obviously believe I am still lying. Yay. How you get chiding from that response is absolutely a puzzlement to me.
That aside, Perm is not making a pointless argument because Lisbeth goes out of her way to go ISOYG on her rapist. Different beginning but very similar torturous conclusions.
io, first of all: huh? man, sometimes you make no sense. at no point did i chide you before you put your unsolicited two-cents into a convo between perm and i with a bunch of nonsense. and again, please DO NOT TELL ME HOW TO POST. “avoid posting like jeff”. what if i want to post exactly like jeff all the live long day? that’s my choice. who made you the arbiter of posting on this blog? it’s not up to you how people comment. you have got to wrap your head around this concept if you are going to chime in every few seconds.
second, perm has not seen ‘dragon tattoo’, so he doesn’t know what he’s talking about in respect to that movie’s themes.
third, have YOU seen ‘i spit’? she kills her attackers in the ultimate expression of emotional revenge, huge diff from ‘dragon tattoo’. ********* spoiler: lisbeth’s goal is freedom. she shrewdly and very calmly goes about blackmailing her abusive authority figure to gain her freedom, that is the context and the theme, freedom from constricting, abusive authority. that she tortures her rapist does not mean ‘dragon tattoo’ and ‘i spit’ have the same conclusion or are the same thematically, it is merely a similarity.
Leah, if you want to just hate me then hate me, but please make it some what sensible. Not only are you giving me flak for discussing something I brought up in the first place and you responded to, you did indeed chide anyone who reads your post with the Expendables and that’s why Joe responded the way he did. Seriously, if you want to post like Jeff all day then good for you, but you do not even get the context in which I made that comment! Good lord, I must be a really good liar for responding this way to you! Whateverthecase, move right along.
“the expendables is opening and it’s, “yee haw, a MAN’S movie, slaughter, carnage and idoicy, HOORAY! manly men on HGH beating and killing each other – with a virginal damsel-in-distress thrown in for good measure to make them seem ‘heroic’ – fathers take your sons and make men out of them, stupid violence is MAN FUN! christ, this is supposedly what men want to see? what does this macho mindless killing for men say about our culture? god help us all, highly disturbing.
but i guess male violence against women on film is of concern, but male violence against men is fun!”
Watching a bunch of bad actors mercilessly slaughter some brown people for freedom and liberty and honor is awesome.
SB, you could suck the fun out of a McDonald’s Playland and that should be moving right along sort of like this… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMR5JVo21wQ .
Oh lighten up IO. You take every single comment so damn seriously and accuse others of being “no fun.” Irony much?
SB, lighten up. If you do not laugh at that comment and take it so seriously, then you do indeed suck the fun out of the nearest Six Flags to you.
I love Six Flags! Those places are fun and I go there specifically for that reason!
Specifically to suck the fun out of them?
Foamy, MANHUG!
Exactly. I run around yelling at the kids and generally act as a total killjoy. A great way to spend $75!
SB: sad zissou shoulder hug.
J/K! I love roller-coasters, although it saddens me that as I age my tolerance for them is weakening. My stomach doesn’t handle them as well as it used to.
SB, it’s not my stomach as much as it’s my neck. It just sucks at taking Gs even if I want to take all sorts of Gs1
I wasn’t talking theme necessarily, but the basic plot thematics of both Tattoo and Spit can be compared. Doesn’t mean the movies themselves are that similar. Like Magnificent Seven isn’t that similar to Seven Samurai but they’re essentially the same plotwise
I’m saying, you can get away with a LOT if you do it right.
Stella, the Expendables could be killing anyone and it would be fine with me. Brown people are fine if that’s who’s in the target sights, but if they want to kill some whities too, I’m down with that.
Equal opportunity with your victims hey.
Fuck yeah, the only thing I care about when it comes to the Expendables is how explosive are people’s heads.
By the looks of it, very explosive.
And do they have chests that you can punch through? If anything I’m more sexist when it comes to action movies because I don’t like women as victims. Why? They have more fatty tissue on their chests, making them harder to punch through.
Not sure about the chest punching, but I have heard you get to see some wrestler punch a dude who’s on fire. Right in the face. So that’s something.
See, now that’s a quality film, you can tell.
All those butch dudes with guns, talking all manly, it practically could qualify as a gay porno.
And it would be the only gay porno millions of men would ever see.
Nothing will ever top Roadhouse for gayness. Two sweaty buff guys, one topless and one in a denim shirt without sleeves, rolling around in the dirt and discussing who they fucked in prison.
Might be educational for them.
It confused me.
Road House is awesome. I miss Rowdy Herrington.
“Pain don’t hurt.”
“I thought you’d be bigger.”
“I used to fuck guys like you in prison.”
“I want you to be nice until it’s time to not be nice.”
Classic.
“And it would be the only gay porno millions of men would ever see.”
After 300.
Oh right 300. I don’t know how I forgot about the most expensive gay porno ever made.
I found it easy.
io, i have no idea why do you always think people are accusing you of lying but ftr at no point in our exchange yesterday did i think you were trying to hoodwink me…
and perm:
“I wasn’t talking theme necessarily, but the basic plot thematics of both Tattoo and Spit can be compared. Doesn’t mean the movies themselves are that similar. Like Magnificent Seven isn’t that similar to Seven Samurai but they’re essentially the same plotwise”
again, how would you know the “basic plot thematics of both Tatoo and Spit can be compared” when you haven’t even seen one of the movies in question? you are just talking out of your ass, basically. the basic plot thematics of both ‘tattoo’ and ‘spit’ are NOT the same, that’s the whole point of this disagreement, the two films are NOT essentially the same plot-wise in any respect.
the funny thing is, you’ve seemingly based your entire opinion of ‘dragon tattoo’s plot on my comment re: my brief synopsis of lisbeth’s rape arc in ‘tattoo’, in which i was deliberately vague so that i didn’t include anything even remotely plot spoilerish, but you’ve seized upon this vague description of the plot as proof the two films have essentially the same plot. the problem is, my vague plot synopsis was in fact far too vague and incomplete to make such a parallel or distinction between the two films. a more accurate plot synopsis of lisbeth’s rape arc in ‘tattoo’, using the same outline as my first vague description, would be this:
the very damaged lisbeth is the protagonist and we see events unfold from her POV, how she goes about dealing with the abuse of authority perpetrated against her, using her intellect to subvert that authority and turn the tables on her abuser to her advantage, to ultimately gain her freedom.”
going by this far more relevant plot synopsis of ‘dragon tattoo’, would you still have seized upon this as meaning the plots of ‘i spit on your grave’ and ‘dragon tattoo’ are essentially the same? i doubt it very much.
“Watching a bunch of bad actors mercilessly slaughter some brown people for freedom and liberty and honor is awesome.”
ha, if you say so, stella’s (it might have been awesome if it actually knew how to take the mickey properly, rather than string together a lot of largely incoherent action with bad operatic buffoonery. wasn’t the idea genuine 80’s style rock-em sock-em fun? more like a try-hard, cliched, poorly conceived mess)
Actually, Leah, I’d say that:
“the very damaged [Jennifer] is the protagonist and we see events unfold from her POV, how she goes about dealing with the abuse of authority perpetrated against her, using her intellect to subvert that authority and turn the tables on her abuser to her advantage, to ultimately gain her freedom.”
Is actually a perfectly acceptable description of I Spit on Your Grave ’78.
Leah, I swear to god that I am doing my best to not and try to get you mad, so I am just making sure from now on.
Ha ha ha, leahnz just worte the same plot again! The same plot that both movies share! The EXACT SAME PLOT!!!
leahnz, I don’t know the basic plot of Dragon Tattoo at all, which is why I was commenting on what you wrote about the plot. As you have seen the movie, then you should be accurate, right? Then if you are accurate, I am accurate.
Hey, I am thinking of a movie where a small village is ransacked by bandits. The villagers decide to go out and find some protection. They bring back seven men of varying qualities, but one is an intelligent and good leader and one is a peerless killer. What movie am I talking about?
Three Amigos
The George Preppard/Richard Thomas masterpiece Battle Beyond the Stars.
Anyway, the biggest plot difference between I Spit on Your Grave and Dragon Tattoo is that the rape/revenge is the central issue in the first movie and a subplot in the second, behind the investigation with the journalist, which is interwoven and therefore makes the story more complex and interesting.
At this point I’d like to make a shoutout to Carol Clover’s book Men, Women and Chainsaws, where she argues that I Spit on Your Grave and The Accused are essentially the same movies, just pretty/glossy/upscale and ugly/cheap/grindhouse versions of each other.
ok io, no need to walk on eggshells man, just try not to be so sensitive if somebody is annoyed by something you say, it’s not the end of the world! i was NEVER ‘mad’ at you.
well jeff, that’s clever but i don’t think so. i appreciate it as an obvious attempt to play the devil’s advocate, but it doesn’t hold water.
the main problem is, dealing with the abuse of authority is NOT the central source of conflict or central theme or central to the plot of jennifer’s arc; the random men that rape jennifer have no actual ‘authority’ over her in any sense, she is an independent woman, completely at odds with lisbeth’s situation. if by ‘authority’ you mean the authority men believe they have over jennifer as a woman by virtue of the tenants of chauvinism, or law enforcement, one could argue that is a component of the sexism jennifer experiences as it pertains to the rapes, but to label jennifer’s arc as comprised of dealing with ‘the abuse of authority’ is disingenuous. jennifer’s arc is clearly a fight for justice, and fighting for her version of justice is not at all the same thing as fighting abuse of authority. i’d argue that jennifer dealing with ‘abuse of authority’ plays a minor role in the plot of ‘i spit’.
further, jennifer is deeply mentally scarred, even deranged; using the power of her ‘intellect’ per se to turn the tables and get revenge on her idiot rapists is an overstatement to say the least; yes, when all else fails she uses common sense, instinct, guts and the lure of sex specifically to exact her simplistic revenge, none of which are particularly part and parcel with the use of a powerful intellect. i’d argue that jennifer’s intellect actually plays a very limited role in her violent retribution, which is firmly rooted in the visceral and emotional for her, not intellectual. however, the power of intellect does play a significant and crucial role in lisbeth’s outcome in which she sets about securing her literal freedom from the threat of renewed incarceration by using her shrewd, well-honed, problem-solving intellect.
finally, jennifer does turn the tables on her idiot rapists, but does this advantage lead to her ‘freedom’? i assume you mean emotional freedom, but this is open to interpretation, and i submit whether jennifer has gained emotional freedom or dug herself into an even deeper physiological black hole is highly debatable.
at the end of the day, gaining freedom from abusive authority is really NOT the central plot of ‘i spit on your grave’, no matter how you spin it.
Sorry, Lou Ferrigno’s Seven Magnificent Gladiators.
perm: see above, nitwit. just because jeff writes the plot that way makes it so? sorry, but no.
also, it’s hilarious how you doofuses keep describing it as a rape/revenge plot in ‘dragon tatoo’. that is CLEARLY not the case, the rape and revenge is actually a savage but secondary element. the plot of dragon tattoo as it pertains to lisbeth is CLEARLY abuse of power/blackmail. the rape and revenge are just by-products of this plot element. did any of you guys actually see the movie? (perm, obviously not)
clearly too much book learnin’, reading what others think and being told what is what, not enough THINKING FOR YOURSELF.
having just read that all in one lump, to be clear i should have said, “just because jeff writes the plot OF ‘I SPIT ON YOUR GRAVE’ that way makes it so? sorry, but no.” writing too fast.
Leah, the point I was making was just that the two movies, in their broad strokes, aren’t THAT far apart. Yeah, Dragon Tattoo has better acting, better writing, better production values, and a whole other main plot line that’s more important than Lisbeth’s revenge subplot. But the original point that Triple Option was making was that for him, watching a ‘justified’ rape scene in Dragon Tattoo wasn’t that better than watching an ‘unjustified’ one in a sleazy horror movie, because they were still both rape scenes. And I think there’s some validity to that in terms of desensitization, as he says.
And Perm’s point was that filmmaking craft and skill can make nasty content acceptable. There are rape scenes in The Accused and Clockwork Orange etc. but those movies are highly acclaimed and Spit on Your Grave isn’t, and it’s partially because Kubrick and Jonathan Kaplan are better directors than the Spit guy.
LASTLY, I just now read IOI’s response to me from yesterday, and yeah: IOI, you just can’t stop being an idiot, with your ridiculous theories and incessant need to force them on others and general pushiness. The top is Cobb’s totem; he spins it in a scene near the beginning of the movie to reassure himself that he’s not in another dream. His ring is important to him as a symbol of his dead wife. He can use her totem because the rule isn’t that you can’t use someone else’s totem, it’s that you can’t let someone else use _your_ totem because then they can fool you.
Why are you so awful?
The big difference is that I SPIT ON YOUR GRAVE is shot like soft-core pornography and DRAGON TATTOO is a story told in a completely different style and narrative. And ISPOYG is relentlessly single-minded or empty headed however you see it.
I don’t think anyone would disagree.
jeff, i appreciate the abridged versions of your interpretations of other people’s posts, but i’m perfectly aware of what triple op was saying, i don’t need you to explain it to me like a child; i responded to triple’s thoughts with some thoughts of my own, which i believe were clear, concise and to the point in regards to the subject at hand and generalising about women not being concerned about context re: violence against women on film.
did you not understand my response? what about it was unclear in the context of the discussion that makes you think i didn’t understand the topic at hand and needed it explained to me?
the thing is, there is often more than one point made in a person’s comment, more than one thought expressed, so just because you might happen to place importance on one element of someone’s comment does not mean I do, or that i am attempting to address that same element you think is important. for example, i AGREED with some of what triple said, which is why i didn’t address that portion of his comment, while i DISAGREED with part of his comment, and that is what i addressed in my own.
do you think this indicates i don’t understand what he was saying? because you would be mistaken.
as for perm, he made a comment re: something i said about one film and compared it to the plot of a different movie, without having seen both movies. this is ludicrous. i understand perfectly what he was saying about the production values making nasty content seem more acceptable, which i don’t necessarily agree with, but that was completely beside the point because my problem was that he HASN’T SEEN the film about which he is making comparisons, which is is blowing smoke out your ass any way you slice it.
finally, i’m sorry but i simply DO NOT AGREE with your assessment (perms assesment is invalid until he sees the films in question) that “that the two movies, in their broad strokes, aren’t THAT far apart” re: ‘dragon tattoo’ and ‘spit’. i think that’s utter poppycock only supportable if the plots of the actual movies are not examined.
like i said, ‘dragon tattoo’ and ‘i spit’ may share some rudimentary plot similarities to a limited extent, but there are CRUCIAL differences that render the comparison largely untenable, starting with and most importantly that lisbeth is under the thumb of a corrupt, abusive keeper, which completely changes the dynamic of the plot from that of ‘i spit’. further, the critical blackmail element of the story is of paramount importance, while the ‘rape/revenge’ scenario you keep harping on about is flashy but is ultimately of little consequence to the plot; the rape is unexpectedly helpful in lisbeth’s blackmail scheme after the forced oral sex, but her black-mail set-up would have gone ahead with or without the sexual assault, regardless. the rape and subsequent revenge are almost inconsequential to the actual plot, wherein lisbeth turns the tables and gains advantage by using an intellectual conceit (blackmail).
so, suggesting the plot of ‘i spit’ match my blurb on ‘dragon tattoo’ is a clever misrepresentation, but a misrepresentation none the less. jennifer’s journey has very little to do with abusive authority figures or an intellectual conceit to gain freedom from a corrupt system, jennifer’s journey is one of pure-of-the-blue violence and victimisation, denial of justice and the need for retribution, and finally revenge as the angel of death. this bears little to no resemblance to lisbeth’s journey, plot-wise or thematically.
jennifer’s synopsis as per my outline used for lisbeth:
the free-spirited jennifer is the protagonist and we see events unfold from her POV, how she goes about dealing with her violent, repeated rape by a group of men that leaves her physically and psychologically damaged, using her anger at the lack of justice for her attackers to drive her to seek justice and exact her own revenge, in which she turns the tables on her assailants to ultimately gain the satisfaction of destroying them as they attempted to destroyed her.
as for my previous synopsis for lisbeth, i’ll further amend it to this:
the very damaged lisbeth is the protagonist and we see events unfold from her POV, how she goes about dealing with the abuse of authority perpetrated against her, using her intellect to subvert that authority and turn the tables on her CORRUPT KEEPER to turn the situation to her advantage and ultimately gain her freedom from the looming threat of incarceration.”
there. in truth, not very similar.
pardon any boo boos n typos above, i wrote that in record time
Would this be an appropriate moment to bring up HANNIE CAULDER?
It’s always appropriate to bring up Raquel Welch.
“LASTLY, I just now read IOI’s response to me from yesterday, and yeah: IOI, you just can’t stop being an idiot, with your ridiculous theories and incessant need to force them on others and general pushiness.”
One) I started the whole freaking discussion and Two) how is it pushy to interject with something? Seriously, you just hate me to hate me and it’s getting a bit much especially given that you are the one whose being the jerk these days and I am coming off as the affable dude.
“The top is Cobb’s totem; he spins it in a scene near the beginning of the movie to reassure himself that he’s not in another dream. His ring is important to him as a symbol of his dead wife. He can use her totem because the rule isn’t that you can’t use someone else’s totem, it’s that you can’t let someone else use _your_ totem because then they can fool you.”
Again, that’s your theory and I disagree with it. That’s not his totem. His totem is that ring. If the ring and his hands are not important then there would not seemingly be a conscious effort to have Leo put his hands in his pocket continually.
“Why are you so awful?”
Go look in the mirror. You have been the worst poster on this blog since the beginning the fact that you are giving me crap is the pot calling the kettle black but of course, unlike you, not awful.
“Favorite food?” “Tortellini.”
“How do you want to die?”
“From eating too much tortellini.”
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, make these infernal GOING THE DISTANCE spots STOP.
Isn’t Justin Long like 16, 17 years old? And why does the first half of any GTD spot look like some VHS camcorder-shot DOCUMENTARY about Drew dating the little boy? The SHEEN of those bits makes it look like it’s not a REAL MOVIE, like it’s MY DATE WITH DREW meets 20 DATES.
Then it turns into a romcom. Then Sudekis does that embarrassing shit. Then that FUCKING CORN ON THE COB joke complete with CRUNCH and that Yenta going MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!
MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOP.
As if seeing the trailer more times than the Shutter Island and The Soloist trailers COMBINED isn’t bad enough, the TV spots are on EVERY. FUCKING. BREAK.
Oh the hell with you. Those Piranha 3D commercials are worse. I DON’T CARE IF SOMETHING IS IN THE WATER! SHUT UP WITH YOUR ANNOYING VOICE!
seems like something’s amiss with the hotbog, the main page appears stuck, not refreshing with new comments or content (maybe there is no new content, but new comments aren’t showing up either unless you preview). maybe it’s just me.
actually, interesting that cadavra should bring up ‘hannie caulder’, further proving my point about ‘dragon tattoo’
plot 101 – source of conflict motivating protagonist:
i spit on your grave – jennifer’s pack rape
hannie caulder – hannie’s pack rape
dragon tatoo: baaaaannnhhh. lisbeth’s rape is NOT the source of conflict motivating the protagonist, and anyone who argues otherwise is a moron.
**spoilers*** the source of conflict and motivation for the protagonist lisbeth (within the wider story) is lisbeth’s court-appointed keeper’s abuse of power by withholding her $ and extorting oral sex from her in exchange for her own $ under threat of renewed incarceration; this is the conflict that motivates lisbeth to set him up with video evidence for proof of his behavior to use to get out from under his thumb, this is the plot line. that he subsequently rapes her instead of just demanding more oral sex for $ like she expected merely strengthens her blackmail scheme, which we discover was already in motion; the rape is in no way the catalyst for lisbeth’s arc; it is, along with the dildoic revenge, merely a violent addendum that happens along the way as part of a plan and a plot already in motion.
the plots of ‘i spit’ and ‘dragon tattoo’ are NOT the same, not even close. so suck on it, in particular smart-ass ‘i haven’t seen the movies but the plots are the same!’ big-mouth perm. that dildo is a big’un
Then you should be a less crappy writer and not write out the plot to Spit while describing Tattoo.
maybe you should be less of an asswipe, watch the actual movies your are carping on about with your huge gob and not rely on MY synopsis for your opinions!
Don’t make me come over to Park Road and throw a bucket of water on you!
(Perm will have to wait until I get another gig in the US)
Just a few quick responses to questions people directed at me since I last posted here:
Leah: 1. I completely understood your response, and it was your stubborn unwillingness to understand what the others were saying that suggested that you needed their arguments restated in clearer form. Maybe you should have said, “I agree with ____, but here’s where we part ways…” instead of launching into attacks and insults. You’ve argued past everyone else into irrelevance.
2. Yes, and I might be mistaken as to your actual attitude in person, but I’m not mistaken based on the words as typed on this page.
To IOI:
1. You’re incredibly sensitive when it comes to himself and incredibly insensitive when it comes to anyone else.
2. You also are incredibly bad at visual comprehension. There’s a scene early in the movie where Cobb spins the top, looks anxious, then looks relaxed when it stops. Therefore, it’s his totem. End of discussion.
3. You’re also an idiot.
Also, the protagonist of Dragon Tattoo isn’t even Lisbeth anyway, it’s Blomkvist (or, at the very least, they’re co-protagonists).
jeff, what on earth are you talking about?
1) i had absolutely no difference of opinion with triple or ‘stubborn unwillingness’ to understand what he, or anyone else, was saying, you are deluded. i suggest you re-read this thread. the ONLY person i had a difference of opinion with (before you and briefly io at one point, which was unrelated to the subject at hand, really) was your dick mate PERM, who had no idea what he’s talking about because he hasn’t seen the movie in question and freely admits that all his comments were based on my synopses, when clearly the subject of discussion was the actual films themselves. if that’s is what this is about, your need to stick up for perm, spare me.
at any rate, please provide a single example of my ‘stubborn unwillingness’, or a “launch into an attacks” or “insult” that does NOT relate to perm, a condescending ass about a movie HE HASN’T EVEN SEEN and is clearly talking shit just for the sake of it.
2) i have no idea what your response for no. 2 pertains to
i think it’s quite clear when discussing lisbeth here in this context that it’s her ‘story within a story’ rape arc, is it not?
(already enough water over here coming from the sky, foamy)
also, jeff, i’ve “argued past everyone else into irrelevance”? who is everyone else, exactly? YOU and PERM are the ONLY people with whom i have disagreed, so are you suggesting that you and perm are ‘everyone’? that’s mighty self-important of you, but i don’t think so. perhaps YOU should think about how you phrase your comments so you don’t sound lquite so self-improtant
actually, i just took my own advice and re-read the thread to make sure i know of what i speak, and jeff, and prior to today, the only thing i’ve called perm is a ‘nitwit’ after an extremely condescending comment in which he actually types out laughter falling over himself to agree with you, after your misrepresentation presenting my synopsis of ‘dragon tattoo’ as having perfectly described ‘i spit’ (which of course it does not). no launching attacks or insults, sorry. today telling perm to suck it is the ONLY such example (and i don’t regret it in the slightest in the context of this thread) so perhaps you need to read more carefully.
I like the scene in Dragon Tattoo where she gets revenge on all of those Japanese people in suits in that nightclub and then kills Lucy Liu.
The McDouche wrote; “To IOI:
“1. You’re incredibly sensitive when it comes to himself and incredibly insensitive when it comes to anyone else.”
Uh no. Again Jeff, if you act like an ass I will treat you like an ass. You, for some reason, think that you can act like an ass to people and everyone should be fine with it. Again, this is you once again getting that you are DESCRIBING YOURSELF and not ME. Again, I hate to bring it down to this level but I have a woman and you don’t. Stop projecting your inadequacies on me, sir.
“2. You also are incredibly bad at visual comprehension. There’s a scene early in the movie where Cobb spins the top, looks anxious, then looks relaxed when it stops. Therefore, it’s his totem. End of discussion.”
You lack comprehension about anything that is not white, graying, or middle aged. Watch the movie again, pay close attention to the dialogue this time, and realize that it’s not his totem. His totem is his ring because under the rules explained in the film, that totem can not be his.
Oh yeah, if you really paid attention during the movie, you would get the explanation as to why he spun that top…
“3. You’re also an idiot.”
but since you think you are smarter than me, you figure out for yourself, douche.
Leah, do you now understand why I suggested you should not post like Jeff?
Speaking of Park Road – had a chat with a film school grad who was interested in the Archive Assistant opening. I’ll email on your fake Leah address. 😉