Weekend Estimates by Many LOLs Klady
Jumanji continues to hold like a champ. The Post has a solid expansion. The Commuter goes on the list of “maybe that thing is over” Liam Neeson movies, which is usually followed by a bigger hit, so go light on the RIPs. The Greatest Showman will pass $100 million domestic next weekend. The Last Jedi didn’t get to $600 million this weekend. (Get out those violins.) Next weekend. Paddington 2 didn’t accelerate as you would expect a family film to accelerate, but word of mouth is good, so keep an eye out. And Proud Mary is a disastrous non-action movie that was sold as an action movie in light of Atomic Blonde, then couldn’t quite get to what it really is after AB underperformed expectations. It probably wouldn’t have done any better being sold as a Gloria-like drama with a touch of action. Phantom Thread is the only $10k+ per-screen film of the weekend.
Is $350 million domestic possible now for JUMANJI 2? Definitely seems plausible, as it’s going to pull ahead of INSIDE OUT’s pace tomorrow. $800 million worldwide seems like a fairly easy target now as well.
Sony claims that the budget on this thing is only $90 million, and thus would be claiming to have the second cheapest non-cartoon to ever hit $800 million worldwide (Jurassic Park).
Hmmm.
Any chance that “Hostiles” could evince a “Greatest Showman”-style second wind after an even more blah opening?
It’s been chugging along at a surprisingly decent clip since Xmas, and that’s despite ANY AWARDS TRACTION WHATSOEVER. (I bet Searchlight, SPC, Focus or, at least in the “good old days”, TWC would have more successfully navigated the “For Your Recognition” waters.)
I’m starting to think positive WOM just might turn it into a modest hit among older auds (a demo actually familiar w/ the western genre).
Next weekend will be its biggest test to date.
Wishing it well since I love the movie.
I think it’s entirely possible, Ethan.
Check out my “Jumanji” thoughts in the Friday thread.
I’m back from Europe and don’t even know where to start…3 Billboards…Ladybird, The Post, The Disaster Artist, Phantom Thread, Florida Project, Coco, Darkest Hour, I Tonya, Shape of Water, Molly’s Game….it is almost intimidating having so many good options
Movieman: I join you in wishing the best for “Hostiles,” which held up very well on second viewing. Still, it’s a tough sell in what Glamourboy reminds us is a very crowded marketplace.
Glamour… just put your head down and start watching. Can’t really go too far wrong with that list. Some better than others, obviously, but those differences are really personal. standard’s high.
Glamour- Definitely begin with “Phantom Thread.”
I think its subtle genius will be best appreciated as the start of an extravagant tasting menu rather than the middle or the end.
Think of it as the caviar-bedecked “ice cream cones” that commence a gourmand/sensory feast at the French Laundry or Per Se.
Did Hostiles get pushed back to the 26th or is it going wide Friday?
I apologize to the rest of the hot bloggers for bringing this up again but I have to take the time to replay some of the apologists’ greatest hits:
David Poland, Jan 7:
“Star Wars: The Last Jedi will pass $600 million domestic next weekend, in 30 or 31 days” It didn’t.
Bender, Dec 23:
“If TLJ doesn’t do at least $35-38 million Christmas day, then its flailing.” It didn’t.
Heather, Dec 30:
“The idea that Jedi damaged the rand is ridiculous. The movie opened bigger than expected and is o course to do what was predicted(650 domestic)” It won’t.
Haven’t heard the 26th, only the 19th in TV ads which have been running since New Year’s Day.
Although it would make sense with three other wide releases (and “Phantom” and “Call Me” expansions) next weekend, and only “Maze Runner” slated for the 26th.
I could have sworn I saw an ad today for the 26th but I could very well be mistaken. Oh good more TLJ is a failure talk.
Not a failure. Just not all that.
And Coco fucking wrecked me. The Book of Life is it’s hopeful cousin, but Coco is just emotional down low kicking at it’s best.
Yo, Dave… How about a “Most Anticipated of 2018” blog post…? I would be very interested hearing what you have to say about 2018, both in what you want to see, and what will actually get distributed in 2018…
Monco,
The funniest part of your post is that you held onto those quotes. Yes Dave was off by 9 million for the 31 days which I’m sure feels like quite the victory..being off by 1.5%..how can he ever leave his house again? And yes I was off by 25 mil..or 3.8% How can I or Disney go on? By the way, since I don’t save posts, why do you hate the movie o much?
Heather, you must not have gotten the memo.
If you like TLJ you are not a “true fan”.
If you defend TLJ’s box office you are an “apologist”.
The fact that it cracked the Top Ten All Time Box Office in a month’s time is immaterial.
^ Left out “Worldwide” in that Top Ten classification.
@ Pete B, sorry I originally I did not receive the memo (which is now being widely be distributed to all trade publications such as Variety):
If you had issues with TLJ, then you must be a “butt-hurt fanboy'”
If you express that TLJ under-performed relative to expectations, then you’re an alarmist or a “hater.”
So now that I have received the memo, yes of course Kathleen Kennedy and her bosses wanted AND expected a 35% drop-off worldwide from The Force Awakens as well having a large group of hardcore fans very angry with the film as they were with the Prequel trilogy…along those lines, they are pleased with the drop-off comparisons to Attack of the Clones as that is the previous Star Wars entry they were hoping to emulate most. The precipitous drop in merch sales nor the disappointing sales of the Battlefront game are not concerning for them either. This was all part of their plan – Kennedy and crew are just playing 3D chess on a different level than I could possibly fathom which I will now concede.
Now that Star Wars is fading EXACTLY as the fine people at Lucasfilm expected, I would welcome the chance to discuss other topics.
Saw Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri yesterday and while it’s a strongly acted film, I’m hoping that most people just see this film as a fable because the characters and their actions have really no basis in reality. Which is fine…it’s kind of a midwestern Crash in that way but still far superior – McDormand and Rockwell deserve all of the accolades they are getting for sure.
Only five movies have made more domestically than TLJ. It will be less by the time it’s out of theaters. Are you saying Kennedy, etc. expected it to be the highest grossing movie of all-time, no questions asked? Or that anything worse than top 3 would be totally unexpected and a huge letdown? Is that what people said prior to its release? I wasn’t paying attention then. Is it top 3 or bust for every new Star Wars movie now? Are some folks playing Monday Morning Quarterback? Is Avengers: Age of Ultron a huge letdown since it made so much less than its predecessor domestically? These Star Wars and MCU movies make so much money the benchmark for success confuses me. Or it’s rapidly evolving. Or people with an agenda are selective about what is within reasonable expectations and what is a massive disappointment.
Wait you discuss other topics Geoff? Kidding. We do mostly agree on 3BB, though I don’t think it has much to offer outside of strong acting.
Looking at the day to day numbers, Rogue One made about $30 million more from this point in the release cycle to the end and TFA made about $80 million more. So probably about $50 million more leaving it just shy of $650 million domestic unless Disney gooses it somehow.
Geoff,
As Dave pointed out previously the drop is similar to most 2nd parts of a trilogy..while Clones isn’t something they want to emulate there was a similar drop for Empire Strikes back. I would expect merch sales to follow in a similar ways but have read anything either way(if you have a link please post, I would love to read about it) Of course Battlefront was an entirely different issue that they screwed up before jedi’s release.
Why would anyone panic on last Jedi, has marvel panicked because dr strange didn’t make as much as ultron or because Thor 3 didn’t do as good as guardians 2? I think the leadership at Disney understands you cannot predict audience response that leads to a TFA or GotG or Frozen over performance, and you can’t predict an audience response that leads to a TLJ or Ant man or Moana underperformance, any executive in charge knows that these variances all average out overtime, and a variance from peak performance of all time declining to only the realm of top 1% performance of all time is not a variance anyone cares about. Or should try to intervene with. Because your intervention is likely to be worse at outcomes than the status quo.
Not to stoke this fire Doug R but in the interests of accuracy that only works if it was currently matching that amount in daily numbers. It’s fallen behind what Rogue One was doing at this point. So it’s not making $650 million and it may not pass Avengers, but as I’ve said before, cry me a river of money. Maybe that isn’t enough for Disney…but it’s not like they’ll ever tell us that. So this debate could rage forever…yay?
You think the Star Wars talk is bad now? Wait until Solo manages only adequate box office. The think pieces will be unstoppable. Although I did laugh when someone suggested releasing Solo in China without “Star Wars” in the title and trying to sell it as a Guardians of the Galaxy rip off. So crazy it might help.
Everyone keeps saying this drop is in line with the other middle sequel movies and convienently forgets that this isn’t just a middle movie sequel; this was the first Luke Skywalker movie after a 30+ yr absence.
If you guys think these numbers are good for a new Luke Skywalker movie after that long of an absence, then enjoy your cognitive dissonance.
The movie is a hit by any other franchise expectation, no question.
But for a new Luke Skywalker movie after 30yrs, the numbers are way below expectations. Which isn’t surprising since they assisnated the character.
Its fine if you love the movie, but to keep propagating the idea that the negative reaction to the movie is only a small group of vocal haters is like a Trump supporter cherry picking facts to fit their view.
3BB as Crash, yup that’s exactly right!
As far as TLJ, if fans are now abandoning the franchise, then I suppose we’ll know more definitively when Solo and Ep9 don’t open and bomb (at least by SW standards).
However, I do think the so-called vocal minority of fans has indeed had a big effect, namely they’ve emboldened regular moviegoers to attack and mock TLJ for plot holes. It’s almost a sport at this point to say aspects of the movie that logistically don’t make sense (as if the previous movies didn’t have inconsistencies). Most regular people would suspend disbelief but alot of this criticism has rubbed off on the general audience and made it cool to be a hater. So yes, I think that does account for the drop off in legs. So congrats on having an effect, I guess?
Since RT and BOM are not considered to be reputable enough with the audience response to be considered accurate; try this fun exercise: Go onto your FB, find an ad for TLJ home video release and read the comments. When you do, it’ll become pretty clear the negative response is not just being engendered by a small group of local fanboys.
ETA: Don’t forget to check the number of likes on the negative comments too. Quite a bigger number than the likes on the positive comments.
FB is a self-reinforcing echo chamber GdB. Act accordingly. If you want a more elevated debate then by all means come in here, the water’s lovely most of the time.
That’s a convienent thing to say Wally. So every forum is a self echo chamber then? FB, YouTube, imdb, reddit and the talkbacks on major SW sites are all bots and an echo chamber eh? That over 200 million dollar diffence is just because a few thousand fan boys didn’t see the movie 5x?
Jedi, please.
You know the only places I hear praise for TLJ? Cinema focused websites. Self professed cinephiles are the only ones praising this movie. And so many of them are high culture snobs when it comes to film, they assume they’re right and everyone else is wrong because they’re wowed by some clever film composition and ignore the narrative mistakes.
So take a good hard look around you Wally. You’re the one in the echo chamber.
Also, one stat we forget to factor when comparing TLJ with Empire’s drop is theater count. When RoJ came out it was released in 830 theaters. How many did TLJ open up in 4200+?
Shouldn’t there be an adjustment in the numbers over that some way?
FB, actually isn’t a self-reinforcing echo chamber. This isn’t AICN talkback in 1999. It’s the largest media platform on earth. Also, the debate has essentially been, “You will accept this is a successful movie, and shut up.” Pass.
I will just respond to two points:
1: SB, Age of Ultron’s failure to perform. Led to Kevin Feige being freed from Ike Perlmutter, Alan Horn being made his boss, and Marvel Studios being freed from the shackles of Perlmutter. This is a movie, that made more than Last Jedi, and it shook the MSCU. The same should happen to LFL, because this isn’t the number they are looking for; from a SW Nobody Saga films.
Make no mistake: these are big number, but they are not strong. Falling behind in China? Not good. Falling back in most of the world? Really not good. There is no logical way to explain this away, and using Attack of Empire to do it, is just faulty logic of the defensive variety. This is 2018, and box office works so much differently than it did in 1980 or 2002. Ignoring this, is just ineffectual.
The Last Jedi is a success, but it’s also a failure. It’s like the 1994 49ers. They won the Superbowl, but damaged the franchise for years to come. Making less than Age of Ultron is an embarrassment, because Age of Ultron was an embarrassment.
No one here has yet answered the simple question: do you really think this is what Bob Iger wanted for his legacy franchise? The new trilogy, is once again in the same quagmire that Lucas found himself in during the 00s. Fans angry, fan divisiveness, and the taint of being not quite up to snuff.
2: Moana and Ant-Man are not under performers. The same with TFA and Frozen not being over performers. You can see these things coming, and you can see where these things go.
We can keep on having this disagreement until the King arrives, and takes back February box office from the vile Fifty Shades films :D!
“The Last Jedi is a success, but it’s also a failure. It’s like the 1994 49ers. They won the Superbowl, but damaged the franchise for years to come.”
Omg. This.
Yes, this is the perfect analogy.
No one is saying it isn’t a success. What’s being said is the brand has been damaged, and the precipitous drop off in numbers is the first sign of that.
Like was said above, we won’t really see it until IX opens. (Solo was already going to diaappoint just because no one can follow HF and its foolish to try. So when it disappoints I won’t necessarily say its a reflection of TLJ, unless it just absolutely bombs.)
The 1994 Super Bowl thing is a good analogy… because it speaks to the delusion that success was going to continue if only they didn’t go and do…
… the thing you didn’t like.
If saying that a gross over $1.4 billion is not a problem is being an apologist, I can get a whole lot of people to sign up to be apologists.
Sometimes, you just have to accept being wrong. Greatest Showman is going to do 50% more than I expected… even after it opened. Good for them. Doesn’t make me angry. I don’t need to find an excuse.
Given where we are with the Star Wars franchise, TLJ is a massive success. But it may be the beginning of the end, as some are suggesting. I disagree. But I don’t know. You don’t know. Call me in 2022 and I will be able to make an educated guess. That is just reality.
Hate the movie if you want. I don’t care. But trying to turn its box office into a measure of quality is always a fool’s errand.
Before commenting on whether it’s fair to say that TLJ is underperforming, here are my thoughts on the movie so that you can judge for yourself if I have a bias against it.
I’ve got to admit that as a Star Wars fan who never considered myself a fanboy (grew up on it and saw every movie from Jedi on on opening weekend but never owned a single toy or even considered dressing as a Star Wars character for Halloween), the assumption that those who didn’t love TLJ are almost all fanboys gets a little bit tiresome. My issue with TLJ is that I was bored to tears for a good chunk of it. I’ve read many a reviewer say that TLJ was a great 90 minute movie stretched out over 140 minutes. I think that is too kind. For me it was an exceedingly boring movie for 90 minutes but the other 50 were exciting or interesting enough to make it worth seeing and somewhat satisfy my Star Wars appetite for another year or two. The majority of my friends with a similar affinity for Star Wars feel the same way.
I don’t have an axe to grind and my issues with the movie will certainly not keep me from seeing Solo or the final film in this “trilogy”. I use quotes because it is clear there is not a trilogy structure in place (with the exception of the theme of a main character from the original trilogy dying in each movie). If I found the movie more exciting, I would not let the oft discussed plot holes sour me on the movie. After all, we’re talking about a series of films where one of the heroes “hid” the child of the arch villain by having him grow up with said villain’s step-brother, on the planet where said villain was born, and with the same last name. I’ve heard of hiding in plain site but come on. If plot holes were an issue, I would have checked out long ago. (As a side note, I’ve long believed that this isn’t necessarily sloppy story telling, but is circumstantial evidence that Lucas pulled the “I am your father” out of his ass when making Empire and did not in fact have it all planned out from day one, but that’s a discussion for another day. Even if it was revisionist storytelling, it’s still one of the great twists in cinema history).
With all that said, to say that only a fanboy with an axe to grind would think that Disney, Lucas Film, or whomever should at least be a little bit concerned is unfair. I think one would need to look beyond just the final numbers and pay more attention to the drop off. The fanboys and, even those fans who love Star Wars but are not necessarily “fanboys” are clearly not giving this thing the repeat business that a well received Star Wars film should get. I know it is anecdotal, but I’ll use myself as an example. I think Rogue One is the only other Star Wars movie that I did not see multiple times in theaters (although I would have been willing to if the opportunity presented itself). I was supposed to go with my wife and two daughters to see TLJ, but my youngest was sick so I just went with my oldest. Because the youngest hasn’t been pestering me, I haven’t made it my business to take her. Selfishly, I really don’t want to sit through it again (maybe I’ll give it another shot on video). I don’t think I’m alone in being part of a group of self-described Star Wars fans who don’t quite rise to the level of fanboys but are not going back for seconds. The fanboys are likely a smaller group, but their repeat business should be worth more than one or two additional viewings that my group normally gives and that adds up.
Looking at the chart above, it is clear that next week, the fifth week of Jumanji will almost certainly top the fifth week of TLJ from this week. TLJ just lost its fifth week to the fourth week of The Greatest Showman (which is doing alright but certainly not lighting the world on fire) and barely beat out a family film that, while beloved by critics, is being largely ignored. Are those of you defending the box office honestly saying this was to be expected? Would you have taken a bet that week one of a poorly performing Paddington 2 finish less than a million dollars from week five of TLJ?
Short story long, I tend to agree with those who think these numbers would be great if this weren’t a Star Wars film that had a lot of good will amongst fans going in. Following the Force Awakens and given that this is the first Luke movie in thirty-five years, yeah, it should be holding up better, no matter how close it gets to $650 million domestic.
Sorry that was so long. When you mostly lurk, you tend to have a lot to get off your chest at once.
S.B.: Apparently “Hostiles” HAS been moved back to the 26th.
I checked B.O. Mojo this morning, and it was still listed as the 19th.
But this afternoon it was changed to the 26th.
Apparently they’re planning to open it on 3,000 screens which is a real sign of confidence.
The 26th is a better date (for reasons I mentioned in an earlier post).
Hope it defies the odds–a western w/ probably zero Oscar nominations, mixed reviews and a soft platform opening–to find an audience in wide release.
OK so I did see a TV spot yesterday saying the 26th. I thought I did but I was confused because it had been the 19th. Really looking forward to it, though the spring semester starts a week from today and I had been planning to see it Friday morning. You’re right though that for the movie the 26th is probably a better date.
Some of you are getting really nit-picky about TLJ’s box office. I fail to see how third or fourth all-time can be considered disappointing (and some people are claiming the box office is a letdown, not that it’s only about damage to the brand). That’s bonkers. DP is right on this one.
Again, what Mostky Lurking is saying is exactly my point and the only thing I’m trying to say.
No one is calling fans of the film or cheering the gross apologists, that’s silly. there’s lots to like about the film. That’s why I like to say it’s a great movie, but a terrible Star Wars movie
Like Mostly Lurking said, it’s not about the gross, its about the drop off.
“Short story long, I tend to agree with those who think these numbers would be great if this weren’t a Star Wars film that had a lot of good will amongst fans going in. Following the Force Awakens and given that this is the first Luke movie in thirty-five years, yeah, it should be holding up better, no matter how close it gets to $650 million domestic.”
This is the only point I’m trying to make. The film is a success. No question. But at what cost to the brand? Will it kill it? No. Of course not. Might it be the film that kicks off the franchise generating less $$ than Marvel or worse, for long enough that a course correction is warranted to retake the crown? That I think is a strong possibilty.
But to blame the dropoff only on hard core fans is disingenuous. And I don’t expect anyone that’s saying so to reconsider that opinion until IX opens. Or maybe if home video sales are way below expectations.
ETA: “Are those of you defending the box office honestly saying this was to be expected? Would you have taken a bet that week one of a poorly performing Paddington 2 finish less than a million dollars from week five of TLJ?”
Seemingly so; which is the only reason I’m arguing this. These numbers were not wanted, much less expected.
If Geoff doesn’t trademark the term “butt-hurt fanboy alarmist”, then someone should. Call ’em BFAs for short.
TLJ’s wobbly legs is now a thing, I accept that premise. Still massively successful, but definitely near the lower end of what they were hoping for. (Yes, that’s right, Geoff, still within the reasonable bounds of their expectations. DP’s right.)
AFAIK, the D.C. release date for “Hostiles” is this Friday, January 19. No new date has been announced, and a screening is scheduled for Thursday night. Although the film screened earlier for critics, the night-before-opening screening is always a sign of a studio largely throwing in the towel on a film, not a sign of confidence at all. But maybe tomorrow, with people back in the office, we’ll hear about a later opening date. If so, I’ll post here with an update.
David, no one is trying to use box office as a measure of quality. The movie is what it is. The argument has been, and will continue to be: did Disney do harm to their brand with TLJ, by squandering all the good will generated with TFA?
SB, here’s another sports analogy. The Last Jedi is a like a sprinter in a relay race. Who happens to have Usain Bolt 2008, as his lead. TLJ had an amazing lead, it’s still strong domestically, but you just can’t ignore how 1.4bn for SW is not exactly where they were probably projecting it to land.
I apologize for interrupting the Hostiles discussion, and look forward to seeing it.
Really GDB..it’s a new “luke skywalker” movie? So Force wakens was a new Han Solo movie? You’re really splitting airs on this one. (or maybe you think its a Marvel movie)
iotherreturned: plenty of people here are trying to say the “lower” box office confirms that they are right to hate on Jedi. We won’t know if Jedi harmed the brand until Episode 9, but the Force Awakens is an anomaly that can not be recreated.
mostly lurking: you can’t compare where it’s at now and claim it’s behind when it did so much business before these other films. Jedi earned 261million in 5 days..Jumanji hit that number after 24 days. Yes its more front loaded than these other films. That’s what happens when you have the 2nd biggest opening of all time
“ The same with TFA and Frozen not being over performers. You can see these things coming, and you can see where these things go.“
I call BS on that statement. To say that people saw $932m domestic coming for TFA, or $400m for Frozen especially after a $67m opening weekend is hindsight prognostication.
When you treat the greatest domestic performance in box office history as the new normal then everything else will be a failure by comparison.
TLJ will have the worst legs of all Star Wars films.
It has better legs than Thor Ragnarok, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Dr.Strange, and many other very well liked and reviewed Marvel films. What does it mean?
We act as if Star Wars is supposed to be the biggest game in town at all times. TFA was beaten by F&F7 at the international box office. AOTC was beaten by Spider-Man, Chamber of Secrets, and Two Towers. Sith was beaten by Goblet of Fire.
And should Daisy Ridley be having a WTF moment when people keep calling her movies Han Solo movies, or Luke Skywalker movies? What does a sister have to do to be kept the lead in her own movie these days? If you guys had your way she’d be Sicarro’d out of her own sequel like Emily Blunt.
“mostly lurking: you can’t compare where it’s at now and claim it’s behind when it did so much business before these other films. Jedi earned 261million in 5 days..Jumanji hit that number after 24 days. Yes its more front loaded than these other films. That’s what happens when you have the 2nd biggest opening of all time”
But that’s my point. Like I said, I’m not talking about $650 million not being within the range of expectations (even if on the lower end). I just think it’s hard to argue that the drop isn’t more than it should be. Of course it’s front loaded, it’s Star Wars, but the drop to where it’s seventh in its fifth week and barely above 10 million in receipts on the first three days of a holiday weekend is noteworthy, even accounting for Star Wars naturally being front loaded. To say that even wanting to have the discussion about whether that drop is a reason for concern makes you a hater is absurd. There is something for rational minded people to talk about. I can’t speak for anyone else, but that’s all I’m saying.
“And should Daisy Ridley be having a WTF moment when people keep calling her movies Han Solo movies, or Luke Skywalker movies? What does a sister have to do to be kept the lead in her own movie these days? If you guys had your way she’d be Sicarro’d out of her own sequel like Emily Blunt.”
Talk about a straw man argument. Calling TLJ a “Luke Skywalker movie”, which I for one did not do, is just short-hand for saying, as I did, that it’s the first time he’s had meaningful screen time in a Star Wars movie for 35 years. If that appearance were satisfying to those who care about his presence, you’d think it would have fostered more repeat business. Who exactly is saying that TLJ is just a Luke Skywalker movie? I have no doubt that for the younger generation, Daisy Ridley is far and away the bigger draw after TFA. And yes, people were very excited to see Han Solo in TFA, even if they didn’t call TFA a “Han Solo movie”. I’m sure you recall how crazy people went when that trailer first came out that ended with the Han Solo mike drop.
@Heather – Yes exactly. TFA was the first new Han Solo movie in 35 years and it did 2B in sales. Nobody went to see Rey, Finn and Poe because nobody knew who they were. Han felt like Han and boom 2B. (Although TBF, I’m sure most were expecting to see more of all 3 in the film before they saw it)
TLJ comes out, they character assisnate Luke and the movie is the SW movie with the worst legs ever.
The math on this is not that hard.
@Bulldog – Rey would be more honored as a character if she didn’t seemingly pull all of her force powers with no training. It’s hard to be invested in a character who gets their powers via a deus ex machina.
ETA: “Talk about a straw man argument. Calling TLJ a “Luke Skywalker movie”, which I for one did not do, is just short-hand for saying, as I did, that it’s the first time he’s had meaningful screen time in a Star Wars movie for 35 years. If that appearance were satisfying to those who care about his presence, you’d think it would have fostered more repeat business. Who exactly is saying that TLJ is just a Luke Skywalker movie? I have no doubt that for the younger generation, Daisy Ridley is far and away the bigger draw after TFA. And yes, people were very excited to see Han Solo in TFA, even if they didn’t call TFA a “Han Solo movie”. I’m sure you recall how crazy people went when that trailer first came out that ended with the Han Solo mike drop.”
Yes. This is all I mean when I say a new Luke or Han movie. Thank you Mostly Lurking for explaining a shorthand that was manipulated into being something it wasn’t…
Rey, Finn and Poe are great! Though arguably they kinda douched Poe in the movie making him a reckless mutineer, but it is what it is.
Let’s just respond to BD somewhat quickly.
1: You can call it whatever you want, but look at TPM and look at ANH. The first of the new trilogy does big business, and you can see it coming. The same with Frozen being a massive success, because what the Disney films had setup with The Princess and the Frog and Tangled.
Do you know the exact numbers the movies will make? No, but this is all spreadsheet stuff, and other intangible stuff you start seeing, when you really pay attention to it. Not that you aren’t, but it’s just trends. Why is Black Panther going to kill February box office next month? Why is it event? A+B=C
Also, no one is treating TFA like the new normal, but in what world is TLJ making less than Jurassic World normal?
Your bit about the MSCU is nonsensical, because MSCU isn’t the same as SW. This has been pointed out time and time again. Guess what though? Three movies in one year, and they make Double the Last Jedi. Don’t need legs, when you are making close to 2.5 billion off of three movies.
You want to just throw around numbers, BD. Here’s a number: 1142 screens TLJ dropped on Friday. TFA? It dropped just 312 at the same time. Making comparisons to other SW movies, other release dates, and so on and so forth. Ignores what’s happening with these two movies right now. It’s the 1994 49ers.
Finally, it’s the Nobody Saga. They want Nobody. They got Nobody. Guess what though? Ridley wants to go and do other things. Rey doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things… if anyone can be a hero, so stating it’s her trilogy ignores, that it’s Kylo Ren’s. Duh :D.
The Jumanji numbers have me utterly gobsmacked. Incredible job of promotion on that one.
IO, I’m not going to provide a sports analogy, but since the holidays just passed – I’ll use a Dickens one.
You’re judging the new trilogy on only 2 ghosts: Christmas Past (TFA) & Christmas Present (TLJ). Christmas Future has yet to show up, and that’s the most important ghost. Not sure why people are so trusting of a character that has lied or misrepresented himself to everyone around him. You don’t know for sure that it’s the Nobody Saga. You won’t until #9 comes out.
after I saw Force Awakens (three times in theatres) my reaction was and has always been, “awesome! Luke gets to do the Yoda role!”
Since I’ve actually seen empire and Jedi (unlike Geoff apparently) , it never once occurred to me that Luke would leave his Yoda-inspired-isolation. Never once did I think we were going to have a movie of Luke going full Galt and being some sort of ubermenschen Doc Savage fan service wet dream of badassery. Nothing in Force Awakens ever indicates that this was going to be a film all about Luke – the – awesome, in fact, that Luke was going to be less significant than the actual main characters of these films was strongly telegraphed by TFA, you kind of have to be blissfully ignorant as a film watcher to miss all the set up about Luke.
And you know, Luke was groomed to execute an obviously dark side revenge fantasy of Yoda and obiwan by murdering (in ignorance) his only living parent. Luke is probably going to be profoundly bitter about the Jedi order who wanted to sacrifice Luke’s soul.
Merchandise sales are down, see the link below:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-toy-shipments-down-sharply-force-awakens-1069479
Dave, we both know this thing isn’t hitting $1.4 billion – it just dropped more than 2/3 overseas last week, it’s probably topping off at just over $1.3 billion. Next to Alice Through the Looking Glass and Tranformers 5, it will be the biggest drop for a sequel to a billion dollar grosser.
No it wasn’t me who coined the phrase, “butt-hurt fanboy alarmist” if only….
IO’s analogy is a good one – most sports franchises not named the Chicago Cubs want to try to win EVERY year so that they sell tickets EVERY year….which is now the game that Lucasfilm has chosen to play, nobody was putting a gun to their heads.
And yes lockedcut, I’ve seen every film in this franchise – I still maintain that The Last Jedi was as step up from The Force Awakens, this isn’t about me disliking the movie which I don’t overall.
Pete, I don’t really care about Disney Nobody Saga movies anymore. I kid, but if anyone can be the hero. Anyone can be the hero, and I understand the point of this. Guess what? It’s just not executed well for my liking. Again, they had a lot of good will, and they squandered it. I am checked out of IX, because it is what it is.
Also, Luke wasn’t about revenge. He was about saving the galaxy. Yoda just didn’t care how he did it. That’s the problem with Yoda.
If you watch the films in order. You get the impression that Yoda is wise, but he doesn’t know shit about being a person. The being a person part, is what killed the Jedi in the first place. They could have given Anakin a home, and treated him with kindness. They didn’t, and he found those things with Palpatine.
The moral of the story: religion doesn’t make you profound. Your actions do.
Geoff, the Cubs are one of the best run baseball teams on the planet Earth. They also won a world series in 2016, have been to the last three NLCS, and have a good chance of putting Bryce and Kris together to reign down on top of everyone. That’s just a terrible analogy.
Now, my brother brought up tonight, how TRUs are flooded with SW product. It’s product from 3 movies and it’s just sitting there. Marvel product moves. DC product moves, when it features Wonder Woman. This stuff just sits there. Why does it sit there? Well, my brother doesn’t want six inch figures, wants articulated 3.75″ figures, and Hasbro are just making 5 POA figures in that scale. You know? Not making fans happy is a SW tradition!
They are supposed to be fixing this, but guess what? There is no place for them to go, because the product for these three movies has made the SW aisles a mess. Much like the films, they are directionless, and LFL is scared to sell toys for certain figures. It’s all… shrug, but Stefon caught that damn ball. I’m good.
Just think your stance is ironic IO, since Luke was a nobody in the original. Don’t understand how it’s executed any worse now, but whatever dude. Haters gonna hate, and never let up, “never quit” like that chump Luke Skywalker.
Geoff, why is $1.5b, or $1.4b your measure of success for Star Wars? Because of TFA? If that’s your measuring stick for Star Wars, then you simply don’t understand how much of a anomaly TFA was, especially on the domestic end.
Brack, I love how you think never giving up, is a bad thing. It’s the most asinine part of any argument you, or anyone else uses with that comment. If you like characters just needlessly quitting all the damn time, then that’s you. It’s like you think it’s dumb or stupid, when all of the best characters in the best movies usually never give. Popeye Doyle didn’t just quit. It’s continually entertaining, that a few of you use this as a dig. Yeah. You forgetting how movies work, how comics work, and how books work is on me. It just shows, that you aren’t really movie fans, but cinema snobs. Which is fine. If you are into that sort of thing.
I am also not a hater. I dislike this directionless Disney SW NOBODY universe. You just go onto Youtube, search, “The Last Jedi,” and you will know where you stand.
Also, your whole argument about TFA being an anomaly is where you lose the high ground. It wasn’t an anomaly. It was the limit of what a SW movie can make. A movie that is entertaining, is edited well, and tells an exciting story. TLJ did none of this, but still made a lot of money. Did it make all that it could? Nah, but TFA was good enough to get it to 9 all-time on the modern list. That’s the power of SW, but feel free to ignore this because you want to fight over this movie again and again and again and again and again and again.
I think you are wrong, you think I am hater, and what do we get out of this? Seriously? The King is coming, and is going to do things in February, possibly, no film ever has. We also get Oscar noms next week, so yay!
I’m the one who enjoyed the movie, and I’m the “cinema snob?” Classic IO mentality. Ever think you’re the Star Wars/super hero snob? I mean, you act like you’re the authority of those two things, as if the past ideas, stories, are somehow law, and quitting is somehow breaking comic book/Star Wars law, and thus crap. What a strange, limited viewpoint.
I understand your whole flawed notion that comic book characters never quit, even though they have and you simply ignore those storylines. It’s a hang up you continually have issues with when one of your beloved characters actually do quit, and you never care for the REASONS why. You never care for the why, just that they did quit, and therefore it’s awful. That’s your MO, but it’s very juvenile. And guess what? Batman came back. Luke came back. What’s the problem?
You’re the only one fighting here. You’re not one to actually have a sane discussion on this topic, aside from talking about how wrong of a Star Wars movie if is, but also take the stance that it would be a good movie if it wasn’t Star Wars? That’s the dumbest argument I’ve ever heard. A good movie is a good movie is a good movie.
TFA was an anomaly because it’s not only the height of what a single Star Wars movie could make, it’s also probably never going to happen again for Star Wars. It was a good movie, but $970m good? That’s debatable, but you really don’t understand the idea that a film can overachieve at the box office? That a movie was released at the right date, the right moment, anticipation of the first Star Wars in over a decade, etc that simply can’t be replicated? Wait, you only like to discredit box office for movies you hate, like Avatar.
Again with the nobody crap. You completely miss the point of Rey not needing to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi, which doesn’t make her a “nobody.” Anakin was a nobody, Luke was a nobody. So what?
I said I’d follow up if I heard about a change in release date for “Hostiles” in the D.C. market, and we’ve just received word:
“Dear Press,
The DC release date for this film has moved. HOSTILES will now open on January 26th in DC. This is also the open wide date.”
Well I’ll be waiting another week to see Hostiles. I caught The Post yesterday. $5 Tuesdays is a beautiful thing. Can’t remember the last time I was at a sold-out 1pm show on a Tuesday. Average age in the auditorium was about 82. I’ve also never seen a Pure Flix trailer at the multiplex before, so that was interesting as well. Think I’ll be passing on the next entry in the God’s Not Dead series.
Anyway, The Post is fine. About what I expected. A little too much schmaltz, which I anticipated, and too much focus on whether or not people’s dinner party plans would suffer as a result of publishing. The cast is great, though I never forgot I was watching Tom Hanks. Not his best work. There are some great moments, but really compelling stuff like the Ellsberg aspect and the arguments before the Supreme Court are glossed over. The ending felt a little abrupt, and when it was over I was a little underwhelmed. A vociferous defense of the First Amendment is always timely. Didn’t he rush this into production after Trump’s inauguration? It feels that way.
Based on the positive chatter here I started watching Brawl in Cell Block 99 last night and am enthralled. I have never been too much of a Vince Vaughn fan, I love Dodgeball more than I should, but his serious turns prior to this I found somewhat laughable. But so far he has pulled off this role admirably, better than the people you would automatically assume would be offered such a project (John Cena, anyone who starred in the 5 previous DTV Deathrace sequels). And he actually elevates the material to actual drama (or melodrama depending how you feel about the term) to where it doesn’t feel like some cheap ultraviolence torture porn.
I have always thought that it was ironic that it was McConaughey completely washing out as a box office presence that allowed him to do the interesting projects that made him arguably a bigger star than he ever was before (though his revival is already short lived). Maybe a couple years on the lower rung will do Vaughn some good and improve his craft. It already has done wonders for his physique, I remember watching Dilemma and wondering which actor was supposed to be the fat guy?
Stella,
I think he first received the script in March and even then had a rewrite done. It was put together in a remarkably short time by today’s standards, but for some of these older guys like Scott, Eastwood and Spielberg it must have been a return to form when you commonly shot your year end movie that summer.
Agree Hcat. Nothing I’ve seen this year (and I have yet to see Phantom Thread or Lady Bird, though I’ve seen pretty much all of the other Oscar contenders including The Post, Dunkirk, and The Shape of Water in the last week) has stuck with me as much as Brawl on Cell Block 99. It’s so fucking good. I’m pretty indifferent about Vaughn (and put off by his politics), but he’s incredible. I’m very curious about the movie he and Gibson made with S. Craig Zahler.
That’s what I thought I heard re: The Post. That’s true, some directors thrive on a short schedule, but here it feels like it did more harm than good.
Well that also was likely a request from the studio, which probably insisted that Streep/Hanks/Spielberg project be ready for academy consideration.
However rushed it felt, it is extraordinary they were able to get that sprawling cast, the production design, shooting locations together that quickly and keep it under $50 million.
And I keep pushing Bone Tomahawk down the list of need to watch films (not as big a Russell fan as everyone else, it always seems to me he lets the haircut do half of the work), but I now I hope to get to it this weekend.
No doubt it is impressive that they pulled it together with that cast and shot it for that amount in a short window. I just wish I felt stronger about the end result. I don’t know why but none of the awards movies I’ve seen have knocked my socks off. Waiting to fall in love with something. Maybe it’ll be Lady Bird or Phantom Thread.
Bone Tomahawk is also amazing. Hell of a debut feature. Never would have expected all this from the writer of Asylum Blackout.
Trying to carve out time for Lady Bird or I, Tonya this weekend. Unfortunately Lady Bird is back for only one afternoon showing a day, not a great time for me. Hopefully once the noms are announced they will put it back in regular rotation.
What have you passionately loved? Anything?
I live firmly in the ancillary world and get to everything way after the fact. While I was strangely touched by The Lovers from earlier in the year I am never able to make a decent top ten list until November of the next year. Finally saw Loving just last month from last year, loved it, thought it deserved more attention. But as for the current batch, right now I am rooting for the people who are already my favorites, although both McDormand and Hawkins are both on that list.
Brack, let it go. I really do not care about this, because there is no sanity here. It’s the definition of insanity, because it’s an Ouroboros at this point. This isn’t fun what so ever. Nope. Not at all.
Hcat, Christian, and SB: thank you.
It’s not a perfect comparison but a large part of last jedi’s Performance relative to force awakens can be attributed to its 155 minute run time vs the 120 minute run time of force awakens. Just one fewer screening per day (a normal day) is significant and two fewer screenings per day during the opening weekend 24 operating schedules both films enjoyed. It cannot explain all the drop, but Duration of the film is a factor that would predict a drop of 15-18% just by the physical constraints of there only being 1440 minutes in a day, you can probably negotiate that down somewhat by addbig screens for last Jedi, though adding screens can possibly offset losing an extra screening per screen, it’s not a perfect replacement because demand for screenings is asymmetric throughout a day and varies by the day of the week.
additionally, added screens are not evenly distributed throughout the market, so many theatres had the same number of screens running each Star Wars (even while there were hundreds of new screens elsewhere, sometimes very inefficiently distributed relative to demand) so those theatres will still have fewer receipts because they have one fewer showtimes per screen per day..
Arguably the four week guarantee Disney sought was probably partially to offset the axiomatic downturn in box office receipts necessitated by a longer running time.
But sure it is Kathleen Kennedy’s fault that there are only so many minutes in a day, everyone panic and fire those women who can’t overcome such restrictions. 😉
@IO as some who moved to Chicago 16 years ago, I can confidently tell you that Wrigley was selling out weekday games in May at least TEN years before they became a strong franchise so trust me….it’s a good analogy. 😉
@Brack, I have no clue as to the EXACT number that Disney/Lucasfilm was hoping for but $1.5B seems to be a reasonable floor
Like I said on another blog, even the sequels to HUGE game-changer hits like The Dark Knight, The Avengers, Spider-Man in ’02, the first Harry Potter, the first LOTR….either first entries that were LONG and/or HIGHLY anticipated and/or films that just WAY over-performed (NOBODY was expecting Avengers to do $1.5B…..remember how big a fucking deal the first Harry Potter was??), the typical drop-off worldwide for the following sequel was 10% at MOST.
So yes to be blunt, a highly anticipated Star Wars sequel with ALL big screens locked in for its first four weeks to drop 35% domestically AND overseas is a fucking embarrassment.
IO, the problem with hindsight, and particularly in your case, is that you mistake it for wisdom.
“The same with Frozen being a massive success, because what the Disney films had setup with The Princess and the Frog and Tangled. Do you know the exact numbers the movies will make? No, but this is all spreadsheet stuff, and other intangible stuff you start seeing, when you really pay attention to it.”
PLEEEAASE get me a copy of that spreadsheet with the purposeful box office timeline that leads from P&TFrog to Tangled to Frozen. And then explain where on that timeline the obvious upward trend that you are predicting exist for Moana which did about 60% of the business of Frozen. Can the Disney Animation house be saved? And why by your logic is TLJ a Star Wars failure when it’s on track to make 67% of the previous installment but Moana at 60% isn’t? If that’s your logic then it should apply across the board and not selectively.
I have no problem admitting I thought TLJ could leg it out to $700m. The fall was fast for Star Wars, but not for any other movie, and sure, some of that could be fanboys not seeing the movie five times in the theaters. But it’s also the normalizing of Star Wars now. We’re getting access to this universe on a yearly basis now. They have effectively removed the build up anticipation, and you are coming off of $936m. Of the top 10 openers of all time, TLJ sits squarely at 5th. Of the top 20, it’s 8th, surely to climb to 7th.
I love the Star Wars universe, but I think 1 per year removes some of the specialness.
Good point about the runtime Lockedcut. Also, the competition was fiercer for both Rogue One and TLJ. In December 2015, the next 5 movies under TLJ did around $300m in that month. For the other two SW films, the competition did around $430m, and in the case of TLJ, those other 5 films were all family films. Hell after those five, you had Wonder, JL, and Thor, another $110m combined in December.
Other studios, to their credit, did not clear the way for a new Star Wars. Sony knew they had a winner and rightly calculated that the two movies could coexist.
I don’t class TFA as an overperfomer. I actually don’t truly know what that means. But it was the right movie, at the right time. That’s not supposed to happen every time out of the gate.
Sorry for the long post.
In other news, The Greatest Showman hit $100m on Tuesday, even though many people on this blog didn’t seem to care much for it or think it would do well. See, other movies have grosses worth talking about…
Geoff, you know why you are the worst human being on earth (You aren’t, but you have this coming :D)? You mansplain to me about my team. I am sorry, but I can definitely know more about the Cubs than you. That’s not numbers, that’s being a fan for almost forty years. Please though, feel free to think you know more. It’s so condescending :P! Also, the number you are looking for… Jurassic World money. That’s what I thought TLJ would make, and it seemed really plausible before everything went to pot.
BD, who are you responding too? It’s not me. I’ve explained that point about SW being it’s own thing, like 1500 times. SW is in it’s own stratosphere, and you have a cognisant point about SW being normalized. I disagree, because if it were normalized. It wouldn’t haven’t made the second biggest opening of all-time. Let me get out that spreadsheet and share this now, and you can quote me on it later. Frozen II will open larger than Episode IX, and it will make more money too.
Locked, welcome, and it still had the same amount of shows. The theatres, didn’t seem to care about that extra minutes. Where that may have mattered? Last week, when TLJ lost 1142 screens, and TFA only last 312 on the same weekend.
Finally, you know what’s juvenile? Not respecting other’s opinions when you disagree with them. I can think you are wrong, but how many explanations do you need before you admit you skim what I write, and don’t actually read it?
Oh I read what you write, I know that last sentence was for me. I thought you didn’t care. I wouldn’t miss your uppity, defensive posts for anything.I knew your resolution to lighten up wouldn’t last. You live in your own world, and that’s perfectly fine. I think you’re the one who doesn’t read what he posts, but whatever. You have a very rigid idea of Star Wars. I don’t, that’s what I meant by juvenile. You’re not alone, a lot of hurt fanboys wanted a different Star Wars. You don’t always get want, that’s life. Don’t worry, I won’t reply to you anymore, because you just can’t handle it when people call you out on your crap.
Anyway, did anyone read about how there’s a “chauvinist” cut of TLJ that’s 46 minutes and has almost no women in it? Sounds like some weird MRA-driven crapola.
Shit, that’s nothing. I once saw a three hour plus cut of Lawrence of Arabia with no women in it.
Yet the cut I saw of The Women was only half that length. That’s Hollywood’s priorities for you.
Let me just saw I am glad to be visiting a place where someone took the length of the film into consideration for a drop in ticket sales. I just appreciate the inside baseballness if it all.
But I disagree on the point that Disney took the extra 30% of the theaters revenue to offset the fewer showings. They did that because they are greedy bastards. And the 25% drop in theater count last weekend was less to make way for Paddington or something else than to get the property off their screens. The chains had to be pissed about those terms, and that contract should be exhibit A in any antitrust discussions regarding Fox.
And hooray for Showman, don’t think it is profitable just yet. But if it can prove that even a mediocre musical can make money maybe we will get more attempts. Bring on Bohemian Rhapsody (though I will pass on Mama Mia, that looks Sting 2 bad)
Brack, my opinion does not invalidate your opinion. I think you are wrong, about everything. You are the wrongest human being whom has ever wronged. Guess what? You feel the same way. Wow. It’s a stalemate, but you’ve been giving me flack for a month, because I dare hate something you like. I dare bring up point after point, and I even took a week off. Did points stop being brought up? Nope. Other people kept it going.
I do not have a rigid version of SW. I called you “trash,” and all the world came crashing down. You call me dumb, or a point moronic, or juvenile, and that’s not personal? That’s not insulting? I dislike the Last Jedi, because it took everything from a movie I loved, TFA, and gave it the middle finger. How is that rigid? How is that inflexible? I still saw the movie after reading the spoilers, and still gave it a chance. Overall? It made me stop caring about these Nobody SAGA films, because they couldn’t even carry over story points from one movie into another movie!
And I get the point of Rey. Again, the whole point of her, is that they don’t have to do Skywalker films. I get it. Doesn’t mean that I have to like it. Doesn’t mean that there aren’t dozens of EU books out there, that told a familial SW story. I love Skywalkers. I’ve never felt burden by them. Also, Luke was introduced as the hero. Rey, was established to be something from touching a the hero’s lightsaber. Excuse me, for disliking the setup and the execution.
If I get under your skin, then ignore me. My opinion that you are the wrongest human being whom has ever lived. Does not change the fact, that it is not stronger or more powerful, and thus, does not negate your opinion. You have your opinion. That’s fine. I have not tried to change it, and nor do I want to change it. You seem to be mad at me, for the stance that I have. Which, I have every right to have, like you have every right to yours. Why my right to voice my opinion somehow is treated less than yours, is for you to figure out. Nevertheless, this is Lebron after losing the Finals:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfqdRnpdIbs The quitting thing? You just can’t stop. Guess what? TDKR is about Bruce having to finish the mission, because he quit too soon. While TLJ is about story tropes, that I dislike and disagree with; for valid reasons. Suicide is the second cause of death in 18-45 year old men. Suicide. Give me all the shit that you want, but our heroes shouldn’t quit, because too many of us actually are.
I never called you any names io, again with you delusions. I couldn’t care less that you don’t like TLJ. Your reasons, however, are entertaining, and bringing up anecdotal evidence as fact is hilarious. I haven’t even gotten to your claim of predicting Frozen’s box office. You just want people to think you’re special. You are special, I’ll give you that.
Here’s the thing about TLJ, you have only J.J. Abrams to blame for not wanting to commit to the whole trilogy. Even still, did you not see the show Lost, where those mystery boxes were set up and many of them leading nowhere? Also, you had built up expectations thanks to your internet friends speculating for two years over stuff that I thought might never happen. If not answering internet predictions about things that never really existed is a FU to TFA, then you’re right about TLJ. I never suspected Rey to be a Skywalker or a Kenobi. If she was, I’d think Luke or Han/Leia were awful for ditching Rey. It’s a storyline that would’ve been completely contrived to make it work so we didn’t hate our heroes.
Rey was something before she touched that lightsaber. Luke got his butt kicked by sand people in ANH if memory serves correctly, and was saved by Ben, while Rey handled Jakku thugs without help. But ignore the movie you claim to love. Considering what happened to Han, did you really think Luke was going to handled much differently?
The fact that you can’t accept Luke’s decision to go into isolation because of extreme shame says way more about you than it does me. Luke came back to save the day. Why can’t you acknowledge that fact? Oh that’s right, because it doesn’t play into your quitting hang up. And trust me, it is a hang up.
I’m not mad at you. I think your point of view reminds me of how I might have reacted to TLJ if I was ten years old. Luke might be the hero, but he also can be flawed, as the best heroes are flawed. Luke was right about the Jedi, they tend to be real screw ups, thus the point of Rey possibly saving the Jedi or whatever it will turn into.
The wrongest human being whom has ever lived? Bwuhahaha! You don’t even know me, but that’s you in a nutshell io. I’ll definely wear it as a badge of honor. If this were a message board I’d use that quote as my signature. You made my day, my year. You must not get out much if you think I’m the wrongest. You’re a funny guy, though I don’t think it’s intentional. I really hope one day we find out you’ve been punking us this whole time. It’d explain a lot.
Brack, you have purposely been antogonizing IO and pushing his buttons to try and sabotage his attempt to be more civil, ever since he started. That’s some excellent passive aggressive BS you’re pulling. Your last couple responses above being a prime example. Calling you out on it.
You say how IO reacts reminds you if you were ten years old? Well your last couple posts above read like an 8th grade Mean girl trying to stick the knife in the back with a smile to the face under a deluded insouciance of moral superiority. So, pot meet kettle.
Gdb, the best part is: he thinks he is some sort of intellectual. Who has deciphered the art and mastery in the storytelling, of The Last Jedi. What can you do? Some people take things seriously. Others? Don’t. He doesn’t like me for this, or something else. What I’ve always found funny, is that I can never have an opinion on here. If I do? I have to be ridiculed, but they can all praise Battleship without a smidgen of irony :D! Different strokes and what not.
HCAT, by Bohemian Rhapsody, did you mean the Queen jukebox musical We Will Rock You? Or did you mean some hypothetical musical entirely based on the song Bohemian Rhapsody? Because the latter is what I would want to see!
Good lord, this thread………..
Ive been a Cubs fan for about 40 years too, just like IO. We have common ground. That’s cool. I still get chills when I think about the 2016 World Series.
Someone above mentioned Bone Tomahawk. It’s fantastic. It has a great cast of character actors so if you don’t care for Kurt (which I can’t fathom but oh well) you get Richard Jenkins, Patrick Wilson (underrated) and a surprisingly good Matthew Fox. Plus a little bit of Sid Haig minus the Rob Zombie nonsense.
The last 4 movies I’ve watched have been a mixed bag. Super Dark Times was great. Really loved that. The Dark Tower…I went into not having read the books so maybe that helped a bit but it still felt hollow and missing big chunks. A yawner. Happy Death Day was….cute. A cute horror film. It passed 90 minutes and I’ll never watch it again but it was pleasant. And we watch Bright. Ya know, I had an easier time accepting the Orcs and shit than I did all the cop movie cliches. That’s really what killed it for me. The action scenes were dark and incomprehensible. Aside from elves and stuff it was lazy color by numbers. It’s like an idea Max landis had while high, then he wrote it hastily while coming down. Stupid stuff. I pray that his misguided American Werewolf remake never ever comes to fruition.
And just so I’m not off-topic, I loved Last Jedi.
As you were.
Personally Bright had all the elements of a good Netflix series. It was a poor movie because it did feel hastily written, and if Will Smith wasn’t attached to it, it would not have gotten all the press it did.
It reminded me of Alien Nation, which was better, in that it’s a world I would really like to see more of, but not because I was fan of Bright, but because I’m kind of sucker for this kind of thing. A gritty, ongoing cop drama about orcs and elves I’d definitely sign up for, but take Will Smith out of it, oddly he wasn’t a negative in Bright, and replace him with a guy like Wesley Snipes, who could use the work and is still a recognizable name and can still do action, and did have some acting chops. Get some better writers and and let it play out as a good cop drama with the mythology in the background.
I’d watch.
One of the best bad movies I’ve seen in years is The Snowman. It’s certainly not a good movie, but it’s fascinating all the same. The pedigree is sort of staggering, from the cast and director to Scorsese executive producing and the Oscar winning editors. On the intentional plus side, it does looks gorgeous and I greatly enjoyed the setting/scenery. But wow everything is so misguided you can’t believe what you’re watching considering all the talent in front of and behind the camera. Fassbender seems bored out of his mind. He doesn’t register at all. I love the guy but it’s a historically bad lead performance in a major studio movie. Two days later and I can’t remember Ferguson’s character’s name. Underwritten female lead is an understatement. All of the accents come and go. Val Kilmer is dubbed and dubbed poorly. It’s hilarious and mind-boggling. Why would you not just recast his five-minute role? You can easily guess the killer in about five minutes, but considering all the other issues that’s hardly a problem. I know the director said they ran out of money and he couldn’t shoot everything, but it’s hard to imagine that would have made all that much of a difference when there are so many problems. I’d love a detailed tell-all about what really happened. Rarely is something like this so bad in such a mesmerizing and befuddling way. I’m glad I saw it. Certainly wasn’t bored.
Brack… IO… mellow, fellows.
You both know how to turn a compliment into an attack in 1 second. Let it go… Let it go…
I meant whatever Mercury Biopic is set for next year, or honestly anything. I would prefer non jukebox musicals, but will take what I can get, and Queen seems like a fine choice since their music is very operatic and would lend itself to cinema.
And while I am not a fan of remakes, reboots, or jukebox musicals, it boggles my mind that in this age of no IP left untouched nobody has made an attempt at The Monkees. Would prefer if they kept the period setting but would love some sort of anarchic pop musical confection. Hell switch the genders and throw Selena Gomez in it, I’m there no matter what.
As for Bone Tomahawk, getting to it as soon as possible. Cell Block was like a Elmore Leonard book directed by John Carpenter, would imagine the western is even more pulpy goodness. And I fully appreciate my non love of Kurt is a deficiency on my part, I like him just alright, and in the right role he is quite good (Thing, maybe his goofy turn in Overboard, never got around to Breakdown), but there seems to be a warm affection to the guy felt by everyone, and I am just missing that gene.
But please I love to hear people wax rhapsodic so if anyone wants to sing the praises of Kurt Russell, that type of thing is my favorite stuff to read from you guys.
I love Kurt Russell. Tombstone kicks ass and he kicks ass in it. I also love Backdraft. That was my most-watched movie at age oh 14 or 15. I’ve seen it 30 or 40 times easily. Of course there’s The Thing. He’s great in Bone Tomahawk. Escape from New York. Overboard. Big Trouble in Little China. Tequila Sunrise. I liked him in The Hateful Eight. Oh man he’s outstanding in Dark Blue. Breakdown is a pretty solid flick.
How can you talk about Kurt Russell’s great roles and leave out Tombstone?
Hcat, mea culpa. The Freddie Mercury biopic is called Bohemian Rhapsody. Looking forward to it. Generally jukebox musicals are the worst.
Yea. Much love for Breakdown. That is a solid flick. Kurt is great but the late JT Walsh steals the film with a fantastic, hissable turn as the villan. He dominates the movie. I really love that film.
This has nothing to do with me. You need to point that finger elsewhere.
Outside of that, I really enjoyed Last Flag Flying. Those types or movies, are some of my favorite. Exceptional acting, writing, and directing that takes something that could be a small filmed event, and uses locations to add extra amounts of scope and scale.
Also, I love Bryan Cranston being super excited about owning a flip phone. It’s good stuff.
And Snake Plissken. Snake Plissken. Snake Plissken, and Jack Burton.
On a side note, I still miss JT Walsh.
Snake Plissken was the fucking shit.
Big Trouble was all kinds of awesome.
Tombstone was the movie that Wyatt Earp wished it was. Russell was great. And Kilmer was at his best.
I love Wyatt Earp though. It’s slow moving, then the Earps are attacked, then it all goes to crap. The women in Wyatt Earp aren’t just there either. They aren’t passing the Bechdel Test, but they feel more like characters in a film, then these women sitting in the corner screaming about everything like they are in Tombstone. Outside of Wyatt’s eventual wife of course.
GdB really isn’t just another io persona? That’s hard to believe.
Projection and deflection on a whole other level, what he is doing David. Just calling it like I see it. It’s not an attack if it’s true.
I didn’t leave out Tombstone. It’s in the first sentence. Wyatt Earp isn’t as good but it’s got a lot of virtues. Some great performances. And Michael Madsen. Always grateful for Michael Madsen.
Uh no. I have never posted as anything other than io, JSPartisan, or iothereturned. Your response is just ridiculous, like your complete and utter descent into madness since TLJ was released. Who knew I was… Colonel Kurtz?!?
Anyone love Open Range? I like to think of it as Unforgiven. If Clint Eastwood knew how to direct “fun.”
Yes, GbB is way too level headed to be you.
Calm down dude, just because I like to have discussions doesn’t mean I don’t like you. I don’t think my opinion is better than yours, that’s a mistake on your part. If I wanted to attack you I would. You seem to have this high or low, love or hate with every movie you see, especially the event stuff. I don’t, I can rate things 1 to 4, not just 1 and 4.
Once again, you insult me. Stop. Seriously. Being passive aggressive about it. Doesn’t change you’re doing it. Okay? Okay.
Oh, sorry GbB, you’re not level headed.
I love Open Range.
Yeah. I miss Michael Jeter as well. We didn’t get enough time with that guy.
Open Range is the greatest movie Disney ever released, and I would include all the Miramax films that came out when they were under the Mouse’s umbrella. Its just a hair under Unforgiven and pound for pound it could exchange body blows with the best Ford, Hawks and Leone movies.
Tombstone is fun but really shaggy. The set design is really sparse yet everyone was still chewing it to bits. Costner’s Earp is the opposite, every scene is treated as a momentous moment and all the actors speak in this ponderous way. If you edited out all the pauses they took between lines of dialogue they could have come in at under two hours. Meet Joe Black suffered from the same ailments.
As for ranking the Corral movies:
Lancaster and Douglas
Fonda and Mature (who is admittedly a little too palooka for a western)
Russell and Kilmer (fun and over the top but the whole exercise seems to get lost under the mustaches, it could almost be a silent film if it wouldn’t rob us of Kilmer’s delicious line delivery)
Garner and Robards
Costner and Quaid (which upon reading it have the cowboyiest names, someone could greenlight a western just on that title AKA COSTNER AND QUAID).
Jeter was an absolute treasure, dripping with humanity in roles that could have easily been Don Knotts buffoonish.
This might be a strange comparison but he reminds me of Thelma Ritter, able to come in hit all the marks and make an impression in the movie with very screen time.
Put maaaaybe Willford Brimley up in the Pantheon as well, Baldwin seems to be trying to secure a spot.
Who else?
My bad, Stella, my bad. Somehow I missed it.
No worries Pete. Just want to make sure my Russell bona fides are established.
Didn’t Russell end up directing a lot of Tombstone because Costamos was really ill or something? Because of that I think it’s miraculous it’s as good as it is. It’s got issues for sure but man it’s insanely entertaining.
One story that made the rounds is that Russell picked Cosmatos on Stallone’s suggestion with the with the intention of co-directing it. Sort of a Buddy Van Horn situation. Apparently Stallone had said that he had basically directed Rambo and Cobra himself while Cosmatos was there for wrangle the crew. Now I am not sure how much of that I believe since Sly was already an established director at the time, and Rambo and Tombstone have more visually in common with each other (and escape to Athena) than they do with Stallone’s other work. But Russell probably had more input on that film than any of his others.
And again I will say I am not the biggest fan but I do miss that the industry doesn’t have room anymore for mid-level stars of his or Dennis Quaid’s caliber. If you check their BOs they never really had a blockbuster in their prime, yet they steadily made movies for decades. Would someone like them be able to have a leading man career today? Would a Jeff Bridges or even a Steve Martin?
Hcat, I have a whole thing about certain actors being irreplaceable. Once Quaid, Russell, and Martin go? That’s it. Edward G. Robinson, Peter Lorre, Ozzie Davis, Agnes Moorehead, and so many more did a job that only they can do. It’s the sort of thing that when you think about film history. It’s amazing how we keep getting lucky to have new talents not replace previous talents, but to create a irreplaceability all their own.
“Get some better writers”
this, across the board for movies in general (which would mean getting people who can differentiate between good, well-conceived and -constructed writing from mediocre dosh — er ‘dross’, how does my tablet spellcheck change ‘dross’ to ‘dosh’)
i’m your huckleberry (kilmer’s said that KR basically directed ‘tombstone’ fwiw)
ETA
re breakdown, mostow is yet another of the infamous ‘showed early promise but fizzled like a sparkler in a light drizzle given plenty of opportunity and seemingly squandered it’ directors cabal
I might sound like a grouch but I never cared for McConnorary either but I frickin loved U571. The epitome of a old fashioned thriller. Mostow chocked when they wanted to turn him into a McG or Michael Bay.
Leah, you are, as usual, correct. http://www.cowboysindians.com/2017/08/val-kilmer-kurt-russell-is-solely-responsible-for-success-of-tombstone/
Hcat: Within weeks of each other in 1993, Paramount released Flesh and Bone starring Dennis Quaid and Warner Bros. released Fearless starring Jeff Bridges. (I went on junkets for both.) Can you imagine either of these movies being released by majors today? And if they were released by majors, what bankable stars would have to play the leads to get them green-lit?
I can sort of actually see WB still doing Fearless. They still take a chance on more adult films. Flesh and Bone, which I loved and need to revisit, if made would likely go through Searchlight or Focus nowadays. I remember watching it solely because of Kloves who I thought was going to blow up in a major way after his debut of Fab Baker Boys (Bridges!!, the man has a type). And while Baker went to the essence of the actors, (was Bridges any more Bridges than he was in Baker, was Pfiefer ever more Pfiefery?) Flesh and Bone had them play wonderfully against type. Quaid was quiet and shy and never flashed his trademark hacksaw grin, Ryan played damaged goods as opposed to a waify girl next door and delivered one of her best performances and no one payed attention, but personally when I think of Ryan I think BOO BOO.
And while I don’t think he is major studio greenlight bankable, I contend that Bridges heir apparent is Woody Harrelson. If you take any role the actors have done and plug them in at the corresponding age they would fit beautifully. Other dynasty’s I have worked out are
Robert Redford – Kevin Costner – Matt Damon
Burt Lancaster – Warren Beatty – Tom Cruise
Kirk Douglas – James Caan – Leo DiCaprio
Jane Fonda – Amy Adams
Sigourney Weaver – Jessica Chastain
and I don’t know who the early era entry is but McCouneghy (I have given up trying to spell his name correctly) is definitely the reincarnation of Richard Gere.
And circling back around (my mention of Cruise reminded me) I can’t help but think some Lee Child fans will watch Brawl in Cell Block 99 and think “Damn it, that’s our Reacher, where was he six years ago!”
Being honest Hcat, I can’t see Cruise in Birdman of Alcatraz.
Fearless would focus more on the plane crash today, but it’s definitely a story that would resonate. It is about PTSD. I have never ever seen Flesh and Bone. Must not have run across it back in the day on Cinemax, or HBO. CInemax, after 10 o’clock (not on Fridays) would always show quality movies. I missed that in a way, because a lot of these movies from the 90s and 80s and 70s have just disappeared. We have a lot of bandwith, unless cyrptocurrency eats it all, and these movies just can’t be put up somewhere. Seriously. I just want to enjoy some True Colors with Cusack and Spader, but that film is nowhere. There’s more films from the 80s and 90s that are in the same boat, and it bums me out.
Sure because being in a jail cell gives him no room to run.
Cruise is a little difficult because he no longer feels the need or is too intimidated to do straight dramatic roles anymore. And I am at a loss having never seen Birdman but I certainly see the Cruise hutzpah in The Rainmaker, MI or Valkyrie Cruise in The Train, Magnolia Cruise in Sweet Smell of Success, and the brief glimpse of fun Cruise had in Tropic Thunder made me think that someday he might be able to pull off a Local Hero someday.
I would love to see Cruise explore the darker side of his persona like Lancaster did (his American Made would have incriminated the protagonist a bit more). Cruise’s cold blue steel villain in Collateral showed his road less traveled.
And yes I admit I have trouble seeing Beatty in The Mummy, or Redford in The Great Wall. But to be honest Cruise and Damon had no business being in those either.
IO, I am with you on lamenting the unavailability of certain titles. I go to order a disk through Netflix that they absolutely should have and am shocked at some titles that they do not have, and of course it is even worse for 40s 50s and 60s. The promise of the internet has certainly not come true.
I believe Flesh and Bone was just in rotation on Netflix streaming. Its a slowly building thriller, and the end reveal is a little too unrealistic, but it works as the type of Gulf and Western era star vehicle that Paramount excelled at (I think True Colors was one of these as well). Not as tightly wound as A Simple Plan, which is probably the masterpiece of american gothic thrillers (along with Night of the Hunter), but it strikes many of the same chords).
Everybody always complained that Meg Ryan only ever played Meg Ryan, but when she stepped out of the Sally persona like she did here no one ever paid attention.
I thought McConaughey could step into some of the Redford roles, particularly with his turns in A Time to Kill, Amistad and Contact, and I could see Redford doing those, just as I could see MM doing All the Presidents Men, Butch Cassidy, and maybe even Sting, but then when he fell into the hell spiral of romantic comedies, and then started to believe his own press that he was too cool for school and became this weird caricature, then he lost me.
I miss Meg Ryan. I could be up for a romantic comedy with her and Hanks again. Even a Judd Apatow version. He’s done Knocked Up, followed by This is 40. Maybe he can tackle the comedic side of grandparents falling in love. Should I copyright this? Lol.
I always thought of Redford as more internal and McC as more showy. I couldn’t see McC in Jeremiah Johnson or Way We Where
And as one of the few who enjoyed Larry Crowne (not a whole lot, but worth a watch) I would love to see Hanks in a romantic comedy again, a late in life hook would be an interesting take, have them be long time singles who are set in their ways and have the conflict stem from there. Plus you can get some attractive people to play their kids who are suspicious of the new people in their life. They can call it Earlybird in Omaha.
I want to put it out there, that the Thomas Crowne remake is one of the most interesting adult relationship movies ever made. It’s freaking layered, and Russo out acts everyone in that movie. She should have received a nom for it, but maybe the sex turned people off? It didn’t turn off the Blockbuster Video people. Who awarded her an award, for the TCA. Friggin’blockbuster.
Rene Russo won a Teen Choice Award for The Thomas Crown Affair? Way to go kids!
No, Pete. Blockbuster Video had an award show for like 3 years on UPN. They gave an award to Howard Stern in 1998, and Russo in 2000. Which I believe, may have been the last one.
Blockbuster gave her an award for the Thomas Crown Affair.
joe you have a little item for every occasion, like a human encyclopaedia
paltrow was the one who made a real impression on me in ‘flesh and bone’, positively simmery
(at least kloves made himself a metric shit-ton of cash writing potters even if ‘f&b’ did kill his directorial career, which i don’t really get – was it a huge bomb or something? it wasn’t critically reviled)
speaking of quaid and ryan, i may be the only person who has a weird affection for that DOA remake they did in the eighties, not a patch on the OG obviously but as a tidy little well-cast mystery thriller and some dennis/meg chemistry i kinda dig it
ETA
after ‘nightcrawler’ i was hoping the awesome R russo would have her own ‘reneeaissance’ but it appears not to be
SB: Two of my favorite Kurt Russell performances (and they couldn’t be any more different despite being separated by a mere two years) are “The Thing” (The Best John Carpenter Movie ever? discuss) and Jonathan Demme’s woefully underrated “Swing Shift.”
I know that Demme essentially disowned the movie after WB recut it, but I’ve always loved “Swing Shift.”
Christine Lahti Power!
On a completely unrelated note, does anyone know whether TWC’s “The Upside” and/or “The War With Grandpa” are really opening this winter?
Hadn’t heard they were sold off to another distributer (like “Paddington 2”), but TWC essentially doesn’t exist anymore, right? Not sure how could they release anything at this point.
B.O. Mojo still insists they’re dated for late February/early March respectively.
Odds and Ends:
A Simple Plan is perfect. Maybe Raimi’s best work. WHY does it not have a special edition/Criterion Blu Ray release??? I still have the original DVD release and it’s bare bones. It’s a woefully forgotten American classic.
The Thing: I agree it’s probably Carpenter’s best movie, but Halloween still remains my favorite (of all time, no less). It was just too formative and influential on me, and even though I can see the seams and errors I still adore it. But The Thing is at least in my top 15 of all-time. Everybody is good in that film.
Speaking of Dennis Quaid, how about some love for The Big Easy? Ellen Barkin was never better. And Innerspace. Always with Innserspace. Another woefully forgotten classic.
Johnathon Mostow: leah has a great point. I was excited for Terminator 3 solely because he was directing, and could have been his breakout. He put together a few good action sequences but the film was mostly too little too late.
Watched Kingsman: The Golden Circle last night. It was certainly overdone and overpacked but I had a lot of fun with it. Vaughn knows how to bring the thunder. I hope the rumors of him doing the Man Of Steel sequel are true.
Share your love for “The Big Easy,” Bill.
Whatever happened to Jim McBride?
“Breathless” and “The Big Easy” were flat-out terrific, and “Great Balls of Fire!” was a lot of fun.
But except for a few ’90s straight-to-VHS and TV movies, he hasn’t been heard from since.
Not that Hollywood is making smart, sexy adult movies like “Easy” or “Breathless” anymore.
Yea, there isn’t much info on McBride. I think he may have turned to writing and/or teaching, unless Google is confusing him with a different Jim McBride.
As much as I loathe Netflix’s refusal to license classics from the Golden Age of Hollywood (with statistically insignificant exceptions), I kind of understand it. They know the classics aren’t key to their brand, and they basically cede that side of things to TCM and Warner Archive. But not licensing all those “lost” ’80s and ’90s films really seems like a missed opportunity. Seems like there’d be a solid nostalgia market for those among a large portion of Netflix’s customer base. I don’t know what the licensing fees would be, but with no apparent demand at the moment, maybe they wouldn’t be exorbitant.
Sideshow: Until recently at least, A Simple Plan was streaming on both Hulu and Amazon Prime. I rewatched it on one or the other a couple of months back, and yes, it holds up beautifully. (And God, I wish Bridget Fonda had kept making movies!)
Billy Bob is brilliant in A Simple Plan, which brings to mind how disappointing it is that he hasn’t been able to thrive as an actor or director in recent years. Sure, he’s always working, but what was the last great movie role he’s had — Bad Santa in 2003? (Haven’t seen the sequel.) His last couple of directorial films barely got released, so I haven’t even seen them, but they sound like the kind of low key, rural character pieces that are always a hard sell at the multiplex, and reviews suggested they didn’t exactly match the quality of Sling Blade, but still, I’d like to see them. Jayne Mansfield’s Car was 2013, 12 full years after Daddy and Them, and I see no directorial efforts on the horizon for him.
Of course, he’s fantastic in Fargo and Goliath, so maybe he’ll just become a great TV actor and move on, with occasional supporting roles in features. There are worse ways to wind down a career, I guess.
Yancy- I second your Bridget Fonda comment. Really miss her.
“Single White Female,” “Singles,” “Point of No Return,” “A Simple Plan,” “Scandal,” “Shag”….I’m getting nostalgic for the rockin’ ’90s all over again.
“helloit’s for you”
(did B fonda cross paths with weinstein)
Bulldog, I think, suggested Tom Hanks do a romantic comedy with Meg Ryan. I concur. Or, hanks should just do a comedy. He’s done tons of great work and has established himself as an American film icon. But I miss it when he was funny because the guy is FUNNY. I’m not saying that he does Bachelor Party 2 (although I love the original) or Return To The Money Pit, but something light, funny, maybe even a little broad. He exercises those muscles when he hosts SNL so they are still there. Judd Apatow would be a good match, or maybe David Wain or Paul Feig. I’m sure there are more daring comedy director choices but I’m not thinking of any right now.
Don’t forget Jackie Brown. Fonda is so good in that.
I did (momentarily) forget “Jackie,” SB.
Yes, Fonda was terrific in that, too!
it’s a good thing i didn’t post fonda’s most iconic line reading from jackie brown
Wow. The last credit for Bridget Fonda is a TV movie called Snow Queen in 2002. Her last big movie was Kiss of the Dragon in 2001. Has it really been that long? Very hard to believe she hasn’t worked in 17 years, as one of Hollywood’s “it” girls for a period of time.