Crossing The Line: Avengers Style
I gave Shia LeBouff and Megan Fox shite on this blog for crossing the line regarding what I think is appropriate to share with the media when it comes to the work process.
Today, it seems that Marvel’s Kevin Feige has gone all Fox-y, telling HitFix, in an EXCLUSIVE, that they are no longer interested in signing Edward Norton for The Avengers because of, “the need for an actor who embodies the creativity and collaborative spirit of our other talented cast members.”
In another EXCLUSIVE at HitFix, Norton’s WME agent, Brian Swardstrom, responds passionately, basically claiming that there was no acrimony, they were close to a deal, and that this kiss-off was an unhappy surprise to them.
I don’t much care about The Avengers film and won’t until I see something from Marvel that really works other than the first Iron Man… which I had issues with, but can rationally see why it was beloved by many others. It has nothing to do with who broke the story, even if some people are incapable of seeing past their own ego in this regard.
Also, Edward Norton… or at least, his people… see me as a Norton basher because I have written about the phenomenon of him re-writing, re-cutting, taking over movies and then telling the world about it, showing some disrespect to the directors and writers he was working with… pretty much the kind of behavior that Feige was inferring.
And of course, Nikki Finke’s monthly threat to sue me is over… who else?… a tweet referring to WME.
Still, I think Feige crossed the line. When a producer or the head of a production studio or whatever his official role is right now, disses an actor publicly and infers they are too difficult to work with, it is a serious thing… much more serious than a role as one of 5 or 6 superheroes in a comic book movie.
When Morgan Creek’s Jim Robinson took down Lindsay Lohan and the letter “leaked”, that was the end of Lohan’s studio career, pending her cleaning up big time.
Obviously, nothing Feige is inferring about Norton is as serious or a huge surprise to the industry. But even if his agent, Swardstrom, is spinning like a mo-fo… even if the was contention (and I have no reason to believe that)… even if there was some reason to think that Norton was going to end up being unreasonable (and I have no reason to believe that either), Feige taking it public is extremely uncool.
It’s even worse that some of the bad-mouthing that has come Norton’s way after productions wrapped. (And let me point out now… I took Norton’s side after reporting the American History X drama and have had a number of direct conversations with directors and others who have LOVED working with him and find him to be as loyal as any actor could be.) Because snarking about perceived bad behavior that can be seen as insulting to others who worked on a project is not the same as saying, in essence, “We couldn’t even hire this guy.”
No one wins litigation in this town… it’s lose/lose. But I think this is actionable, even if it will never turn into an action.
“I don’t much care about The Avengers film and won’t until I see something from Marvel that really works other than the first Iron Man… which I had issues with, but can rationally see why it was beloved by many others.” – David Poland… FRIEND OF THE GEEK!
yikes. way to start this project off with a thud. so right now, the first major story about the Avengers movie is the scrapping of Ed Norton. So if Thor and Captain America underpeform next year, what happens?
They are not going to under perform. Seriously, Thor and Cap, good lord, I am just going to keep the commas going, seriously, all night long, all night, all night!
Captain American, well made, will not underperform. Thor, well made, will.
I know the geeks will kill me for this, but outside of comicdom, Thor is not the commodity that even Iron Man was and his mythology skews far more fantastical than any other of the mainstream superheroes. I also heard they are nixing his alter ego of Don Blake.
Hulk is far more accessible and is considered a two time underperformer. Can’t see Thor with a complete unknown doing better.
I agree with Favreau and Downey that plugging Iron Man into that universe is a tough nugget to crack. They should have not made Thor a part of this equation.
Thor is not as unknown as you think. He’s known. He’s known thanks to Adventures in Babysitting and being a member of the Avengers for 40 something years. Seriously, Thor is as known as Iron Man was before the first film. If they have a killer freaking first trailer or Super Bowl trailer with lots of Thor hammering something action. It should do well. If not, we will cross that bridge when we get there.
Oh yeah Nicol, Don Blake is still there.
Agree w/ Nicol on Thor.
But my real point is McWeeny’s hissy fit on Twitter today was classic. Please remind me: he’s a grown-up, in his 40’s, and is a semi-working screenwriter, right?
Or is he a thin-skinned little girl with delusions of persecution, and rage issues? If he can’t take comments on the stories he breaks (not criticism, just simply comments) then how the hell does he deal with any studio interested in a screenplay of his??
Not trying to turn this into a moratorium on Drew. But having followed and crossed paths with him for over 10 years it never ceases to amaze me how he has not really seemed to mature or develop professionally and emotionally very much. He still responds to every perceived attack like a child. Knowles used to do the same thing, but I’ll give him credit in that he just doesn’t seem to give a flying fuck about what anybody says about him.
It’s honestly kinda sad. Drew should know better. The petty wars and bickering between the geek writers on the net remains hysterical, but the more preeminent ones should get a fucking grip and grow up.
Besides, Dave’s right. Bruce Banner is a thankless fucking role. Norton is a great actor and was fine. So is Bana. But NOBODY CARES BECAUSE THEY JUST WANT TO SEE THEM TURN GREEN AND SMASH SHIT.
BTW, LitCritHulk on Twitter cracks me up. http://twitter.com/LitCritHulk
Kevin Feige learned his trade from Avi Arad, who after some success looked people in the eye and lied to them- he did it to me and he did it to New Line and many, many others who have sworn off doing anything with him. Hence his post Marvel output is BRATZ. Kevin was a decent guy who should be replaced by his new owners and have someone more seasoned step in. That would include any of the Disney Security Guards or people in the lunchroom, all of whom could do better than Kev these days.
(the preceding is an opinion expressed by me, in case anyone is confused as to what is expressed in the comments)
Banner is a thankless role in this film. If they make another Avengers film, he’s the second smartest man in the Marvel Universe. You need someone to play him who has some hutzpah. Nevertheless, Norton put Marvel out with TIH and now he does not get to go Green again. Here’s hoping whomever they pick to be Banner, can carry himself on screen with all of those other actors.
Steve, there’s I reason why I refer to it as MCWEENY STYLE. I posted something on AICN back in the day about Unbreakable and he sent me an email that went all sorts of snarky and indignat on me. Thus the birth… of MCWEENY STYLE. So yeah, the dude, may have continuing issues of anger management or maturing. Lord knows I do and that’s why I play MADDEN! WOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
“They are not going to under perform. Seriously, Thor and Cap, good lord, I am just going to keep the commas going, seriously, all night long, all night, all night!”
What exactly is the performance line at which “Thor” or “Captain America” would underperform? In the comic book movie genre, each one is starting from its own square one and will have to make a mark on its own. The success of an “Iron Man” or “Batman Begins” still doesn’t guarantee anything. They could both hit big, they could both flop, one could hit big, one could flop, and variations on that.
Without raining on your enthusiasm, saying that their success is a fait accompli sounds just as bizarre as claiming they’re born duds at this point. We’ll see, but not right now.
“Banner is a thankless role in this film. If they make another Avengers film, he’s the second smartest man in the Marvel Universe. You need someone to play him who has some hutzpah. Nevertheless, Norton put Marvel out with TIH and now he does not get to go Green again. Here’s hoping whomever they pick to be Banner, can carry himself on screen with all of those other actors.”
Hutzpah? Bill Bixby never had hutzpah and he wss still light years better than Bana or Norton were in the part. I think Ben Stiller would actually make a terrific Banner.
jemaine clement should be the next banner
“jemaine clement should be the next banner”
Mmmmm…nah, I just can’t see it, not with his look and his personal vibe. Why Clement?
jemaine clement would be a psycho genius choice, completely fucking with the iconography of the character. he’d be like a young benicio in the role.
Patton Oswalt should be the next Bruce Banner.
Or John C. Reilly.
Hey, if we’re throwing out ideas…..
Or what the hell. Harry Dean fucking Stanton. It is a scientific fact that HDS improves every movie at least one letter grade by appearing in even one scene.
Carpenter’s CHRISTINE? OK JC hired-gun flick.
iov2, I have anger problems too, hence my verbal assault of the college kids at the movies yesterday, and my recent dressing-down of neighbors who ultimately made the right choice to move.
But in Drew’s case if you are putting your material out there you have to be able to steel yourself to being questioned, or criticized. And in regards to the Twitter thing David wasn’t attacking him or being critical. He simply stated his opinion that installing a new actor for Banner isn’t as big a deal as some think. Disagree with him if you want, but Drew acted very thin-skinned like it was personal.
Maybe I over-stated it when saying he has “rage” issues. But like many I’ve followed him since AICN’s inception. I’ve admired some of his writing, didn’t like some and questioned his screenwriting ability based –admittedly– on early pieces I saw. Whether I like him personally is neither here nor there. But he is one of the most senior, well known and a sort of “founding father” of the geek web writers. He should be displaying more poise and self-control. I’d like to see him do that in order to be proven wrong.
I find Red Dead Redemption to be a great funnel for anger. Murdering random folks in remote fields, taking their money, harvesting the horsemeat and selling it is cathartic. But I’m a Madden addict, too. If Chad Henne is as good as he’s been in my franchise my Dolphins are gonna be cash-money for the next decade.
Just an ironic FYI. The word “Feige” in German means “coward”
“So if Thor and Captain America underpeform next year, what happens?”
What happens is that The Avengers gets retitled ‘Iron Man 3: The Avengers’.
Hal, Bill Bixby? Really? That’s not the HULK. That’s TV HULK. TV HULK had moments but what the Avengers need is someone who can come across as a super bad ass, even though he’s a complete and utter geek that could kick no one’s ass as a regular guy. That’s BANNER, THAT’S THE HULK, AND THAT’S WHAT’S NEED! HULK SMASH PUNY HAL!
You also responded to something that featured a reference to Lionel Ritchie. Come one dude, get with it. Seriously.
I am endlessly fascinated by the dust ups and all out posting wars on this site that are obviously fueled by so much ancient history of insults, slights or perceived criticisms that I have no knowledge of.
Almost every time this kind of thing flares up, I get this image of a counselor addressing one writer saying, “I think what he’s saying is _____.” and then turning to the other one with “And what he’s hearing is______.”
It seemed to me like a basic question: “Does anyone actually care enough about who inhabits the Banner/Hulk character for this to really have a lot of weight right now?” was being put on the table. And you could then offer up (actively or not) your feelings one way or the other. But I didn’t get an underlying criticism of doing the piece in the first place.
But then again, I don’t have the history of past skirmishes to color that judgement as I’m reading and viewing the clash from the sidelines.
As far as the original question, I don’t think this particular character (at least as it has been made for TV once and the big screen twice now) encourages an emotional loyalty on a grand scale. I agree that the big green can be applied to another actor with less pain and heartache than could be done with other characters. I don’t see this coming anywhere close to reaching the level of debate and fan interest as say, each time a new guy was fitted for the Batman cowl. Or chosen to wear the Bond tux.
As far as the side issue of news or nonsense – of course, it’s news. AND an exclusive. Solid stuff getting both the initial statement and then the response out there first.
re: clement, what DP said
change it up, try something fresh, go for the gusto
I think Norton’s talented but I also think he’s what’s referred to in the sports world as locker room poison. Didn’t he take this public first by not doing press for the las Hulk movie and basically being a dick about it after the fact? Before that the last movie he did that did any box office was The Italian Job and he was forced at gunpoint to do that one. He’s a good actor but his last really good movie was going on 10 years ago. His goodwill is gone.
If people were direct, the problem would be resolved. Go ask Terence Howard.
Marvel – We don’t feel like giving Norton his biggest payday in years because of how the disagreements during Inc Hulk’s production conflated with its promotion.
Norton – I’m sorry if Marvel felt I overstepped my bounds during Inc Hulk, but the movie was going to be devoid of character development. See Clash o/t Titans for proof.
Norton then offers to cut his upfront in half if Marvel is willing to guarantee it on the backend. This way, Norton proves his motivations are about wanting to be involved in the superhero equivalent of the Magnificent Seven, and Marvel has another solid name above the title. Norton is not going to fuck with RDJ or Fav’s and Whedon has a pedigree Norton respects, so he’ll trust him. Solved.
What makes it worse is the passi-aggressive shit. No one should have run to Drew with hopes of making this some emotional outcry from “the base”. Drew and Harry were always terrible at making the plea.
If Phoenix really is the replacement. I am fine with Norton walking away. If it’s not Phoenix. Bring me Kevin Feige’s last paycheck! We are going to give it to the interns who work at DC!
The idea of replacing Edward Norton with Joaquin Phoenix because they want a more cooperative actor in the slot is epically hysterical.
No one has supported Phoenix’s work more than I. I think he’s a genius actor (not unlike what Norton can be)… but he is not a cakewalk. And with the director’s attention split in 5 or more directions, Phoenix is capable of far more trouble than Norton has ever dreamed of creating.
And for the record, neither actor would sell a single extra ticket to Avengers. Much better actors than Wil.i.am (or however he spells it), but about the same box office relevance in a movie like this.
I’m pretty jazzed about the Avengers, and of the characters involved, Hulk is likely my favorite, but I really don’t think recasting the Banner role for Avengers will make one whit of difference in the success or failure of the film.
It is funny reading the comments on various geek sites, where so many are claiming they’ll never see the movie now. I have to imagine most, if not every single one, will see it opening day.
How about Kevin James as Hulk? He’s built his entire career on smashing things, and no CGI would be needed: just change him to green in post.
Campbell Scott IS Bruce Banner.
And just to geek out for a minute, as far as Banner being the second smartest guy in the Marvel Universe, wasn’t that Gamma Bomb the most ineffectual weapon ever created. They had two people at ground zero and it proved fatal to neither, one was unscathed because he made it to a ditch and the other was turned into a rampaging monster. So the enemies that didn’t escape the bomb by simply ducking are now unstoppable beasts who are probably more than a little annoyed at you. I would have hated to be the guy who had to write up the progress reports on that project.
Given the way radiation behaves in the Marvel Universe, it’s a wonder that most of the population of Japan aren’t super-powered.
And getting insurance for your scientific labratory must be next to impossible given all the experiments gone awry.
The Marvel property I would really like to see adapted, and I cant recall the name of it because it came out a year or two after i stopped collecting, is the team of super construction workers that have to clean up all the messes left by the epic battles the heros have.
Screw that, armless tiger man movie all the way.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/armlesstig.htm
“Oh yeah Nicol, Don Blake is still there.”
You sure about that IO? Everything I can find about the movie, post Jan ’09 (the last mention I found suggesting his inclusion), says he is not.
hcat – Damage Control. It’s been in development for a number of years. It won’t go anywhere because of the failure of non-traditional superhero fare.
Phoenix is pure stunt casting for SDCC. No one cares for Evans or Hemsworth in Cap and Thor so they’re desperate for attention. He won’t take it so god only knows. As I said for Inc Hulk, it should be Walton Goggins. If he’s not leading man enough, go with Olyphant. If they want a bigger name, offer it to Brody – who should have been Loki…
Speaking of Thor, it has a much better shot of working than Cap. Too many hands have groped the First Avenger for it not to be as clunky as IM2.
The reality is it’s beginning to look like Disney overpaid by about 2Bil. If that holds, Feige’s histowah and will see bigass repercussions for the entire company.
“No one cares for Evans or Hemsworth in Cap and Thor”
NO ONE is a bit of a bold claim. Other than those still pissed that they didn’t cast that Starsgaard kid as Thor dislike Hemsworth, the rest don’t really know enough about him to have an impression. And plenty were happy with the casting of Evans. Don’t go projecting all over the place.
Projection? It’s about traction. It’s called a fanbase because it’s the “base” for which awareness of a property is built upon. If they’re nonplussed you’re starting below baseline, which is where Thor and Cap reside. SDCC is about getting above zero and they’re looking to use Avengers as the catapult for it. The attempted stuntcasting of Banner is a tell they’re aware Evans and Hemsworth are not drawing.
Hemsworth was a better fit for Cap in a handful of ways and you can see it in Trek. Typecasting would have been grabbing Skarsgard because he’s a big F’n Swede. Evans was the best of some blech choices, which is where any happiness exuded from, not because he embodies anything like RDJ or Bale did. Both films have turned into higher-risk formulas because they were not ready to roll and the forced casting shows it.
“You also responded to something that featured a reference to Lionel Ritchie. Come one dude, get with it. Seriously.”
Okay then, a Phil Collins reference:
so-so-what-io?
Martin, I am going to have to disagree. Seriously. Go use the google and you will see that Evans got a lot of people excited as Cap. He has the build, he has the bulk, and he has the ability to stare down Downey. He is that damn good. Seriously again, do not doubt the EVANS!
Also, again, Hemmingworth got that job for a reason: he kicked ass in all of his three minutes in Star Trek, a lot of people were like “Whose that dude, he could be a Superhero!” and there you go. You have to understand that Thor just needs to have two things in it: HAMMERING STUFF AND BETA RAY BILL! You do that, you got box office gold.
Oh yeah, one last thing: go read a current Hulk comic. Loeb might not be everyone’s cup of tea but he’s had a hand in creating one hell of a Bruce Banner, and Phoenix represents that Banner prefectly.
Again, you are an agent, your insight is always welcomed, but don’t go hating on things that generally have people excited. They may not have had people in your circle excited, but people are excited for both of those films.
Is this some Orwellian game? You keep saying I’m an agent. Fine. I’m now an agent.
Evans did not move the needle. I’m not saying he can’t play the role, he just didn’t bring traction like RDJ or Bale. Hemmingworth’s at least got the unknown quantity going for him, but Evans is a lot more defined. He should be playing hard against type unless Whedon’s usual pop culture rewrite trainwrecks the script.
I like Loeb as a producer. I’ll take a gander as to what he’s doing with Hulk, but the more Ultimates/modern-day Marvel approaches its films, the more they won’t work. Hulk isn’t that hard to make a movie except Marvel doesn’t want to make a Hulk movie.
Martin, you have no ability to judge if Evans moved the needle because you obviously missed the anilitical evidence that Evans got a lot of people excited.
Martin, you have no ability to judge if Evans moved the needle because you obviously missed the analytical evidence that Evans got a lot of people excited. The same goes with Hemmingsworth because countless people left Star Trek believing he should be a SUPERHERO!
Seriously, you do not need Bale or RDJ press releases to move the needle. You move the needle with the base, that’s all that matters.
When I see this: “the need for an actor who embodies the creativity and collaborative spirit of our other talented cast members” I see someone who is not only telling a star he isn
If only Chris Farley were alive this would all be moot.
And I will repeat myself once again because I like to:
http://www.twitter.com/LitCritHulk
Problem solved
So, months ago when we all thought Cap/Thor would be 3D, Feige kills the talk before principle. Now, he backpedals into conversion city.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/herocomplex/2010/07/thor-3d-captain-america-3d-comiccon-marvel-studios.html
I really am not sure what to think at this point. They could have shot 3D, everyone was aware of that, and they balked.
Now, is it fear of all the 3D competition surrounding these two films, the 3D money bump as a way to break the IM ceiling, or a vote of no confidence in the pared down productions.
Martin, it’s the ceiling and the 3D Bump. Again, you have more international and domestic 3D screens being installed each and every day and by the time these films come out next year, the 3D Bump could be so substantial. You can have a film that would normally be a modest opener and turn it a 100 m weekend, and we all know 100 m weekends speak loud and clear to people.
IO – Those facts are right, but they didn’t come about in the past few weeks or days.
Feige, Marvel, Par knew exactly what you wrote during pre-production because the 3D screen initiative was heavily active before Avatar’s release – so why wait to do a post-conversion?