SPOILER THREAD: The Big Ideas Of Tron Legacy
So… Tron Legacy is out there… it looks like it’s going to do strong business in the US… but I questioned its Big Idea. A commenter, murdocdv, disagreed in detail. And trying to be fair, I am giving it a prominent place in the blog.
SPOILERS ABOUND… So If You Care, Don’t Read This Thread Or Its Comments.
One of the writers of the film – who I really wanted to DP/30, but never heard back from Disney about interviewing – told me he’s a regular reader of the blog. Maybe, maybe not. But if he is, I probably already insulted him. Maybe he will pop in and have a strong opinion of his own. Maybe not.
Anyway, here’s murdocdv on Tron’s Big Ideas…
There are two big ideas in Tron Legacy. First, that intelligent life spontaneously springs into existence without a creator. Two, that information may want to be free, but that doesn’t mean it always should be.
In the movie, original Flynn tells his son of his huge discovery, the ISOs (isometric lifeforms). He has proof that life does not need a creator to exist, it can simply spring into existence. Flynn is the god to this universe, and something is alive he didn’t create. If in reality someone created artificial intelligence in our image which did as it was told, but in that same environment another kind of AI evolved out of nothingness, the discovery would be monumental. As Flynn in the movie says, it would change everything. Coincidentally, from descriptions I’ve read, physicist Stephen Hawking’s recent book The Grand Design argues essentially the same thing for our universe, it simply sprung into being, no creator needed.
The other big idea is that information wants to be free. Sam Flynn demonstrates this idea by hacking into Encom’s systems to upload the latest version of their flagship operating system to the Internet. He does this to carry out the ideals of his father as best he knows them. In The Grid, Programs are information, thus Programs want to be free. But old Flynn has acquired some wisdom through his solitude in The Grid, and now believes that not all programs, not all information, can be free without cost. The Grid is not just a computer simulation, it’s another universe. Old Flynn mentions at some point his work in quantum teleportation, which is how he gets into The Grid via the laser scanner. Clu has figured this out, that the portal isn’t just an exit point for a user representation, but the actual gateway that transforms an existence for representation between our world and The Grid. If people can “beam in”, why can’t programs beam out? Clu wants Flynn’s identity disc because it has all the information on how this process works, and perhaps the bits necessary to get a program into the real world. Which is I think one of the reasons why old Flynn gives Quorra his ID disc, he hopes she can make it out. So old Flynn knows now that not all information should be free, sometimes the costs can be too high.
Well put. Tron Legacy is now offically a better movie than The Matrix Revolutions to me.
Oh don’t go down that road, Krillian. I will post the entire transcript of the Dr. Cornel West commentary from Revolutions and you will bow down to the insight. BOW DOWN I TYPE! BOW DOWN!
Please, everybody. PLEASE. This is not at all an “ideas” movie — it’s all about the visuals, baby. Which means that after the “Wow!” wears off — pretty early in the movie — it’s a long, hard slog.
To murdocdv’s “big” points, I say: SO WHAT? Neither of those grand ideas are meaningful in any way to the movie, mainly because they’re either sloppily conveyed, not followed up on, or both. Nor are they meaningful in any way to our own reality.
“First, that intelligent life spontaneously springs into existence without a creator.” Uh, no… the catch, of course, is that it is NOT spontaneous. You’ve totally confused the point of Hawking’s book — it’s not that there must or must not be a “Creator”; it’s that no matter what, conditions need to be favorable for intelligent life to happen. If you send a cardboard box into space and leave it out there, floating across the galaxy, for literally billions of years… guess what? There’s no F-ing “Grand Design” theory. Life — intelligent or otherwise — ain’t happening inside that box, I’m sorry to break it you. Even if you gave it a TRILLION years. No, Hawking’s point is that through enough time, random statistical chance and evolution, intelligent life can be created without there being a divine force behind it. So how does that apply to Tron? Easy: because Kevin Flynn had put the *necessary conditions* in place on the grid for intelligent AI to evolve. It was literally there to begin with, in the programming. (Note that in the same “world of Tron,” ISOs didn’t exist in the first movie. So improvements were made in the programming; enough time passed; and voila. Life. Just as it happened on our own planet.)
So now that we know it’s not a very interesting point to make like a high school philosophy student and argue that “There is no God, man!”… why is it interesting to the world *of the movie* that ISO’s exist? They don’t do anything special; Clu has killed off all but one, in fact. Now, supposedly Olivia is the most special-ist ISO that has ever been… and if she gets out of the grid into the real world… it will change everything. Does it? Not really. In fact, she doesn’t even seem special IN THE GRID ITSELF, unless you replace “special” with “hot.” Then yes, I’m with you there. Even with her stupid haircut, Olivia is hot. I mean, special.
You go on to write: “The other big idea is that information wants to be free,” then close that same paragraph by stating “Not all information should be free, sometimes the costs can be too high.” How is that an interesting point? I’d say that’s already one everyone knows already (a movie about Julian Assange would have been a. more relevant and b. better at making this point… and at the same time, just as obvious as T:L)… and again, isn’t examined in an interesting or thoughtful way.
But it’s the last plot point — the biggest one, really — that you kind of gloss over, implying it’s not only obvious but feasible for these programs to get out into the real world. *It’s not even feasible IN THE MOVIE WE’RE WATCHING.* Jeff Bridges and son are able to be deconstructed and turned into computer data because they exist as biological entities; they go from A, to B, back to A again. But how the hell can computer programs ever exist as biological entities? There’s no going directly from B to A — because the very nature of their programming doesn’t correspond to anything “real.” The “lay-zer” (thank you, Dr. Evil) doesn’t have any way of giving them flesh and blood, because that’s not at all what their programs were designed for. Plus, I think you have to assume that in Flynn’s little basement workspace, there’s probably not a huge collection of elements on hand that could be used to reconstruct all of Clu’s programs that are waiting to get off the grid, much less Olivia herself. But whatever…
Look, I liked the original Tron enough. But the ideas in the sequel just don’t stack up. At least Daft Punk’s score is cool.
Wow. Just fucking wow.
IO: Serious question: have you ever read a book that didn’t have pictures and text balloons? Or are you just 14?
Shilifor: fuck you :D!
Mr F nailed it. Jeff Bridges even mentions how his DNA or source code or whatever is in the ISOs but that it has evolved. That’s how he could repair her. Look I liked the movie too and had a nice, enjoyable time at the movies but this is not a Big Idea movie. It just isn’t. Oh and I thought the 3D sucked.
I HAVE AN IMPORTANT TRON LEGACY QUESTION since we have the ear of the WRITER OF AN AWESOME MOVIE YEP YEP:
Why isn’t Bridges SUPER FUCKING PISSED that he’s spent all that time with OLIVIA WILDE HOTTEST WOMAN EVER, then his douchebag Hayden Christensen SON comes and STEALS HIS GIRL?
I don’t care how fucking ZEN Bridges is, some prick kid of mine comes in and scoops up my chick, I’m Marvin Gaye-ing that little fuck right OFF THE GRID.
Or did BRIDGES somehow FAIL TO NOTICE he had a LIVE-IN SUPERMODEL for 20 years?
EXPLAIN.
Since he apparently got rid of his need to poop, maybe he got rid of his sex drive too?
Nah he can poop if he wants too. Again, he’s good. He also has a master/apprentice relationship with her. It’s a Samurai thing. There is a reason she uses a sword after all.
Yeah it is a big idea movie. If you disagree you disagree but that’s you denying stuff that’s already in there, and that’s on you and not the film. The internet: where the guys act as if it’s 1950 towards differing opinions.
Fair enough, I shall now admit that Tron: Legacy is another film like The Men Who Stare At Goats: a film that has several noteworthy ideas is so bloody boring and poorly executed that it’s theoretical intelligence is rendered null and moot. I’m not sure what’s worse: a dumb movie that feels smart (I’m debating whether The Social Network falls into that category) or a smart movie that feels dumb.
And yes IOv3, you’re correct about The Matrix Revolutions. I have serious issues with the middle ‘kill all robots’ hour of the film, but the first and last half-hours are quite thoughtful, and I never failed to be moved by the bleak finality of the big Neo/Smith battle.
Again, people who find TRON or TL boring, are confounding to me. I also would not do secret Santa with you. If I had to do so. You’d get safety scissors. That’s right: I’d give you GREEN AND WHITE SAFETY SCISSORS! J’ACCUSE TRON/LEGACY HATERS! J’ACCUSE!
Tron Legacy has TONS of Big Ideas and backstory. It has hooks into graphic novels and videogames that cover that gap between the Trons. It setups framework for future sequels to use. This is the kind of universe building that you get from two writers from LOST. Do these ideas add up to a good 2nd act? No.
I like the core movie setup: son looks for father he doen’t really know / father is stuck in world of his own making / father has made copy-who’s both a false father and true son. I cared about this stuff. Then we get rounded-up programs, gladiator programs, rebeling programs and clubbing programs. Our villain’s big plan? Invasion with secret army! Our heroes big plan? Run! Do I care? No!
The Big Ideas that Murdocdv shared are there, but the ideas are tv series infrastructure that you see and hope pay off later, not movie ideas that you invest in. Tron’s second half story fails because it neither built drama out of the father/son ideas I cared about or sold me on the Murdocdv ideas: “the last ISO must be saved!” or “information should be free – EXCEPT THIS TIME!”
nobody’s denying ideas that are already in the film. They’re just saying the idea’s that were explored were not explored very thoughtfully or executed as well as they could have been.
“The internet: where the guys act as if it’s 1950 towards differing opinions.”
from the king of, ‘Your opinion sucks if its different than mine’
Lol. its called a mirror. you should look into it.
Vagina Toupee, I am not some white geek forcing my opinions on me. I defend my opinions and that’s it. The fact that you… people keep on insinuating that I cannot accept different opinions when I am more than TOLERANT AND OPEN-MINDED TO ALL OF THIS BLOG’S BULLSHIT, is rather laughable. Not as laughable as someone inadvertently going by the nick “VAGINA TOUPEE” but laughable nonetheless.
Big Ideas aside, Tron writers Eddy and Adam were responsible for much of the great funny stuff on LOST. I didn’t need a full-on Frogurt, but I think the Flynn family could have used some lighter moments.
(If you were not into LOST, Neil “Frogurt” was a background character with a hysterical flaming-arrow demise).
“I defend my opinions and that’s it.”
Yeah, except the part where you go after anyone who voices and opposing opinion like a pit bull on a sugar high.
Michael: speaking of LOST, don’t forget that Eddy and Adam were also responsible for the episode “Expose” — featuring unlikable characters, interesting but underdeveloped ideas that never ended up going anywhere, and hammy dialogue. Sound familiar?
Thanks David for the thread!
@Mr. F
You’re ruining my zen thing, man!
I don’t see how you say both “big” points aren’t meaningful to the movie. The entire movie is about Clu getting the portal open so he can get out. He’d rather live free or die than spend any more cycles in the prison of the grid. He figured out how to send the page from inside the the grid. Any user arriving in the grid was the key piece of data he needed, he’s proven information can leave the grid that started there. He thinks he needs Flynn’s ID disc to get something as complicated as himself or other programs out. Old Flynn, Kevin, has been living in solitude with the one ISO he was able to save. He’s been protecting it/her, this new life form he didn’t make from being eradicated by his previous creation. He’s also hiding his ID disc so that he doesn’t give Clu any more information on the grid than he already has. Once Sam arrives and provides the carelessness of youth to propel Old Flynn into action, they race to the portal before it closes so all of them can get out and prevent Clu from getting out. Old Flynn then gives up his life, which he has been teaching Quorra about for literally years, another big idea of self sacrifice, so she and Sam can get out. And she makes it! A digital life form was able to enter the “real world”. Again if such a thing happened in our world, it would change everything. Slowly to be sure, new survey says 40% of Americans believe in creationism. *sigh*
Of course the ISO is special in the movie. Special doesn’t mean they have super powers. When Quorra is locked up, old Flynn makes it clear that he can do some things to fix Quorra, but much of her programming is beyond him. It’s the complexity of the life form that is special, far beyond what the creator was originally able to come up with on his own. I don’t think it’s an accident that when looking at her programming, we see what I could only describe as a digital double-helix, in other words digital DNA.
I didn’t misunderstand Hawking. I didn’t suggest life in any form could just pop up anywhere, of course the conditions have to be right. As for the conditions being right, it’s pretty clear in the movie that this is The Grid 2.0. Flynn started over after Tron 1, that’s why he gave Clu autonomy, he needed help building this version of the grid. So of course the conditions changed and obviously improved because the ISOs exist without his explicit interaction, but that was one of many outcomes he didn’t foresee trying to build the “perfect system”.
As for programs leaving the grid, Quorra gets out so it is clearly feasible. The only surprising thing about this was that it wasn’t touched on in the original Tron. If you have discovered how to deconstruct a person in our world into bytes, then it’s just information. Moving between worlds, your either bytes->atoms or atoms->bytes. The atoms can’t be destroyed, where do they go? I have no idea in the movie if Clu is going to be able to get all those programs and that massive ship out, but I thought it was a very interesting idea. The stakes certainly seemed high to me.
The other possibility is that the filmmakers have another big idea in store if they get to make another movie. As the film opens, we see the Disney logo transform from the world of the Grid to our world. Old Flynn is telling Sam: “The Grid. A digital frontier. I tried to picture clusters of information as they moved through the computer. What did they look like? Ships? Motorcycles?…” The “real world’ in this movie from all the wide shots sure looks like The Grid”, the city is obviously a grid, with different lighting. Another way to describe people are as “clusters of information”. What if the movement of users and programs between universes is because both are compatible? That our “real world” is just a more advanced simulation?
I haven’t said any of this are new ideas. But it wasn’t new with The Matrix either, you have to go back to at least Plato for this to be a new idea, that humans are just inputs and outputs being run by our own programming.
@Scott Mendellson
If you didn’t see any of this in the movie, or you didn’t think it mattered to the story or the plot, then yeah I can see being bored. But that’s like any movie, if you don’t understand the story, or don’t think the stakes matter, why care?
Yeah Mr. F, Expose pretty much revealed the ending of LOST before we knew what the ending was. Seriously, if you are going to give Ad Rock the 2nd and Edward shit then do not give them shit for EXPOSE.
Mordoc, if I ever need someone to fly anything on any mission, you will be the first person I call. I bow to you. BOW!
Finally, Story, let me explain this to you one last time. If you or anyone else punches a film that I love in the figurative face, then you god damn right that I will not sit on my hands and let it go by without a rebuttal.
Why this upsets you so god damn much is beyond me.
I recall IO proudly boasting that he doesn’t read much. Which explains things.
BTW, we’re talking TRON here. Biggest Idea: cool light cycles.
I have never boasted I do not read much. Where in the fuck did you get that from? I am constantly fucking read dude. Good lord, here’s one, and here’s two.
No the biggest idea in TRON is what it means to be a person even if you are but a program.
Back to Quorra, I agree Flynn had a master/apprentice, father/daughter thing going with her more than anything.
All great points murdocdv.
I think what keeps movies like Tron, The Matrix movies, etc. from being taken seriously is that they are action heavy, and that’s not what some people want idea movies to be.
But really, no matter how well a movie projects ideas onto a screen, there’s still the fact that it’s a movie, and there’s limitations to what can be presented.
I would love more Tron movies or a Tron TV series to spontaneously spring into existence.
where did the roast pig come from?
He’s god. If you were god. You would be able to make a roasted pig as well out of nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE
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I think TRON should bridge the gap. The ISO should be the “Underworld” hero against Clu’s assassins sent back to Flynn’s Arcade in efforts to take over…humans. Tie it to programmable machines, and you have everything feared in today’s SciFi movies. It would be AWESOME!