May 19, 2024
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It shows how out of it I was in trying to be in it, acknowledging that I was out of it to myself, and then thinking, “Okay, how do I stop being out of it? Well, I get some legitimate illogical narrative ideas” — some novel, you know?
So I decided on three writers that I might be able to option their material and get some producer, or myself as producer, and then get some writer to do a screenplay on it, and maybe make a movie.
And so the three projects were “Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep,” “Naked Lunch” and a collection of Bukowski. Which, in 1975, forget it — I mean, that was nuts. Hollywood would not touch any of that, but I was looking for something commercial, and I thought that all of these things were coming.
There would be no Blade Runner if there was no Ray Bradbury. I couldn’t find Philip K. Dick. His agent didn’t even know where he was. And so I gave up.
I was walking down the street and I ran into Bradbury — he directed a play that I was going to do as an actor, so we know each other, but he yelled “hi” — and I’d forgot who he was.
So at my girlfriend Barbara Hershey’s urging — I was with her at that moment — she said, “Talk to him! That guy really wants to talk to you,” and I said “No, fuck him,” and keep walking.
But then I did, and then I realized who it was, and I thought, “Wait, he’s in that realm, maybe he knows Philip K. Dick.” I said, “You know a guy named—” “Yeah, sure — you want his phone number?”
My friend paid my rent for a year while I wrote, because it turned out we couldn’t get a writer. My friends kept on me about, well, if you can’t get a writer, then you write.”
~ Hampton Fancher
“That was the most disappointing thing to me in how this thing was played. Is that I’m on the phone with you now, after all that’s been said, and the fundamental distinction between what James is dealing with in these other cases is not actually brought to the fore. The fundamental difference is that James Franco didn’t seek to use his position to have sex with anyone. There’s not a case of that. He wasn’t using his position or status to try to solicit a sexual favor from anyone. If he had — if that were what the accusation involved — the show would not have gone on. We would have folded up shop and we would have not completed the show. Because then it would have been the same as Harvey Weinstein, or Les Moonves, or any of these cases that are fundamental to this new paradigm. Did you not notice that? Why did you not notice that? Is that not something notable to say, journalistically? Because nobody could find the voice to say it. I’m not just being rhetorical. Why is it that you and the other critics, none of you could find the voice to say, “You know, it’s not this, it’s that”? Because — let me go on and speak further to this. If you go back to the L.A. Times piece, that’s what it lacked. That’s what they were not able to deliver. The one example in the five that involved an issue of a sexual act was between James and a woman he was dating, who he was not working with. There was no professional dynamic in any capacity.
~ David Simon
They sell so much automatic weaponry in Arizona I’m surprised no patriot was carrying who could effectively desist this criminal. Oh wait, most of those guns are going to Mexican drug gangs.
Words have consequences. This should serve as a lesson to us all.
And the horrible irony that Giffords was pro-gun rights and in a state where they brag that they have such quick access to firepower they can stop any shooter…
“Second-Amendment Solutions.” The Tea Party has blood on their claws.
Disgusting. I hope this opens up a serious conversation about Palin’s bullshit “what? me? violent?” defense of wink wink nudge nudge assassination rhetoric.
I eagerly await Palin’s empathetic tweet.
Qwiggles: Breitbart has already warned “Daily Kos” not to go there.
Christian: She has already Tweeted.
My sincere condolences are offered to the family of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and the other victims of today’s tragic shooting in Arizona.
On behalf of Todd and my family, we all pray for the victims and their families, and for peace and justice.
– Sarah Palin
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2011/1/8/934297/-Second-Amendment-Solutions-(pictures,-continuing-updates)
Giffords’ congressional office in Tucson was vandalized in March after she voted in favor of the health care reform bill. Sarah Palin included Giffords on a list of Democratic candidates targeted for defeat in the midterm elections because of their support for the health care overhaul.
When asked by the New York Post whether his daughter had any enemies, Spencer Giffords, 75 tearfully replied: “The whole tea party.”
Within a week America gets a glimpse of GOP governance.
So in cinematic terms, is Palin Greg Stillson form THE DEAD ZONE or “Lonesome” Rhodes from A FACE IN THE CROWD. Or, both.
It also looks like Giffords is pulling through so that’s somewhat good news.
I havent seen the news, but what ive gathered from facebook and twitter is that sarah palin gunned down a congresswoman at a target.
And then something about arizona iced tea and a party.
Im awaiting confirmation
So the Take Back the 20 site isn’t working for me. Is this just my internet or is it the same for all of you?
http://www.takebackthe20.com/
I know they scrubbed the target graphic and are probably overloaded.
So long Sarah.
The amount of rhetoric being spewed in response to this with so few actual facts being reported has been scary. Absolutely pathetic.
it took me a moment to process/realise those are gun sight targets on the map. how close does the link between clearly inciting gun violence and actual gun violence have to be before someone is held criminally liable? really scary, i feel for you guys
I see the Left and Right have used this tragedy as just another reason to spew their mindless talking points.
“And the horrible irony that Giffords was pro-gun rights and in a state where they brag that they have such quick access to firepower they can stop any shooter…”
Straw man. Nobody ever said having a gun can stop any crime.
There is no evidence that gun control decreases murder. One incident proves nothing.
Palin’s map was tasteless, however. I will agree.
“There is no evidence that gun control decreases murder. One incident proves nothing.”
I could take that more seriously if the gun lobby weren’t controlled by extremists for whom the barest regulation of access to advanced weaponry is a constitutional violation, and where gun ownership (millions sold every year remember) is somehow under threat.
Let me go way out on a limb here and guess: Mark, Dornoch and MarkVH — assuming, of course, these are three different people — are of the conservative persuasion.
This is what you get, when you let a scumbag Australian run a propaganda network with an assist from several newspapers. The sooner FOX NEWS and all conservative talk is removed from the air, the better off this nation will be.
Oh, sure, they could stay on the air but the lack they ability to be tolerant. They lack the ability to not be, you know, hateful insipid pieces of shit, then they can stay on the air. If not, fuck them, fuck the people who follow them, and fuck the NRA. Congrats NRA: you got another 9 year old girl killed today. GOOD GOING, DICKS!
IO, you’re an idiot.
Joe, kindly go fuck yourself. Yes, I’m conservative, but think the Tea Party is a disease and the republicans are a joke. Voted for Obama in ’08. Doesn’t matter. What matters is that this kid was a psychotic without any discernible politics. Not a shred of evidence of Tea Party affiliation. And all I’m seeing are people on both sides using this horrific attack to fit their political agendas – including our illustrious host – before this story has been reported in full. An old-school newspaperman like yourself should be equally offended. What happened here is far beyond political parties, and anybody who blames it on a single party is a fucking parasite. It’s a systemic problem, with an explanation that’s more complex than anyone wants to admit.
Oookies… couple of points:
The evidence on gun control and violence is mixed – there are incidences cited for both sides where violence has increased or decreased after a change in laws. The conclusion appears to be that it’s heavily dependent on the community what the final outcome will be – which seems to agree with the NRA quote “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people”. However, as Eddie Izzard points out, the gun certainly helped and the violence would have probably been considerably minimized without it.
While it’s conjecture, my guess is that the shooter had problems of his own unrelated to any current political message. It’s likely that he simply latched on to convenient rhetoric rather than was incited to violence. In other words, he probably would have done something anyway even without Sarah Palin, the NRA, or any other group to which you choose to link.
Having said that, focusing your narrative using gun terminology seems very naive. Given the level of gun violence in general, it was inevitable that a high profile incident would occur with ties to Conservative politics, no matter how tenuous.
Is it me or does the gunman look an awful lot like David Gordon Green?
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/235439/JARED-LEE-LOUGHNER.jpg
MarkVH, the fact that a conservative can even spell IDIOT is astounding to me. Seriously, what you believe in, does nothing but harm in this country. What happened today happened because THE REPUBLICANS AND GOD DAMN CONSERVATIVES have spent the last 2 years demonizing the Democratic party and Progressives. Repcons have used evil and hateful rhetoric time and time again to attack the other party and now it has cost innocent lives outside of a Safeway in TUSCON! What you stand for, what you believe in, is responsible for what happened today.
The fact that someone who believes in such disgusting filth as CONSERVATISM, dares to refer to me as an IDIOT, may be one of the more fucking insulting impungings of my character on this blog.
Idiot? This is you and people who agree with you… http://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters4/lex-blood.jpg . It’s a nice look, don’t you think?
More childish rhetoric for political gain…that makes no sense.
We have no idea what really made this individual tick…to put this on Palin; really? How childish and inconsiderate of the victims at hand.
Let’s assume this is true. He is a rabid Palin fan.
How does that square with one of his favourite books being The Communist Manifesto, his rantings against the Christian Bible and one of his favourite videos beings one of a creepy dude in a death mask burning the American flag? How does it square with the fact that Gifford was considered a Blue Dog Democrat who favoured guns.
People who go along with the Palin/right wing angle are blinded by hate and not looking at the whole picture.
They are the corrupt police chief in some generic cop picture who “knows” he has the killer while the protagonist goes on to find the real killer in act 3.
I have no idea if this lunatic is left or right. All I know is that he was a lunatic. Let’s leave it at that until there is more evidence.
Anything else is classless in the extreme.
Haven’t looked at any update on this lately, but yeah, it might be a good idea to at least wait until the guy’s motives have been ascertained before tarring the entire spectrum of conservatism with the same bloody brush. Of course, even if it turns out that he’s just some sick guy off his meds, we’ll probably hear a lot of “Um, well, that’s not the point. It COULD have been a Palin-hypnotized neanderthal working toward ‘the solution’.”
And I’m a pretty moderate sort. Voted for Obama. No right-wing axe to grind. Just not the knee-jerk type.
Yes, in the most literal sense, the Tea Party rhetoric is no more directly responsible for the AZ shootings than video games were for Columbine or “Taxi Driver” was for John Hinckley shooting Reagan. That said, how many of the GOP politicians and talk-radio hosts, who are certain to take to the airwaves and decry any attempt to connect the two as a liberal smear-job, will be equally willing to come forward and absolve the Koran and 99.9% of the world’s non-violent/non-extremist Muslims of any responsibility for 9/11? Just askin’….
Nicol, is not blinded by hate. It’s just not blinded by right is in front of many people’s faces. It’s obvious what this guy and possibly another guy are into, it’s rather obvious what Arizona has become in terms of crazy ass political rhetoric associated with the right, and it’s rather obvious that one side has spent hundreds of millions of dollars lying and demonizing the other side of the political spectrum.
Seriously, you are the problem in this because you and people like you can never get what you believe in does to people, but at least you don’t live in this country. That’s a plus and what Shili posted.
“Joe, kindly go fuck yourself. Yes, I’m conservative…”
Typical of your sort. You’ve just re-enforced the cliche. Thanks.
Nicol D: I wondered how long it would be before you’d chime in. Also typical.
It really scares you folks to think that, in this decade, you have the crazies on your side, doesn’t it?
Let me call on an expert to offer his opinion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwhOE32ijkc
Yancy, right on. IO remains an idiot.
Meanwhile, as Roger Ebert notes: “Sarah Palin rummages online frantically erasing her rabble-rousing Tweets like a Stalinist trimming non-persons out of photos.”
Joe, Michael Caine is amazing in The Muppet Christmas Carol.
Seriously man, I’m disappointed in you. I thought you were above this useless, counterproductive labeling. You can call me whatever you want. Conservative, liberal, it just doesn’t matter, and in this case it’s totally beside the point.
Again, MarkVh, you are a conservative. How you can type effectively is a mystery to me. The fact that someone as lowly as you thinks that your insults get to me, really states a lot about your character. The fact that you think that this has nothing to do with conservatism, is even more damning of whatever character you have.
Joe, IO,
Really. Be rational. Convince me.
If you are right (you may be, you may not be…not enough evidence yet), how does him being a right wing nut job square off with what he says he loves and believes on his own sites.
Why does his myspace page have an article ridculing conservatives? Why does one of his alleged high school classmates say he was uber left wing and liberal…which would actually make more sense with what his own spaces say.
Please tell me why a Palin loving nutjob would love the Communist manifesto and hate the Christian Bible and mock conservatives?
If you are right, you must have an easy explanation? Right?
Yeah because liberals and uber left wing people have a tendency to open fire with automatic weapons on people. Seriously, ridiculing conservatives is what the tea party has been doing since Monday. Seriously, Tea Party people are fucking irrational and they are fueled by the irrational right. Have you heard, seen, or read the bizarre shit Glenn Beck puts out there?
Seriously, be rational Nicky (Sorry thought it was MVH). When have liberals ever done such things? When has it ever happen? Again, it’s obvious what happened today and the sheriff does not believe he acted alone. Again, it’s obvious.
As Nicol has pointed out, some things about the apparent gunman make his views seem more of the liberal variety. Then there is the alleged anti-government rhetoric, talk of a new currency, and rantings about non-English speakers. Plus a lot of other non-nonsensical ramblings. Add it all up, and it looks like he may just have been completely mentally unbalanced rather than overtly political. It’s also too early to know for sure. They are still looking for another suspect and the shooter isn’t talking.
Also, regardless of what is learned about any motive(s), I think people have a right to be concerned about stuff like Take Back the 20 and the fact that her opponent in last year’s election “held fundraisers where he urged supporters to help remove Giffords from office by joining him to shoot a fully loaded M-16 rifle.” Apparently her office had been vandalized and she was threatened more than once.
fuck.
are you people going to make me say it?
i wish lex was here talking about teenage jailbait.
this shit is boring.
Sheriff Dupnik said it best: “‘The vitriolic rhetoric that we hear day in and day out from people in the radio business and some people in the TV business…This has not become the nice United States that most of us grew up in.'”
And Palin’s pathetic scrubbing of her site (or should I say sights) is proof that even she knows that her rhetoric is hateful and incitive to gun violence.
At least the GOP won’t throw about popular Tea Party phrases like “Second Amendment Solutions” – no more playing ostrich from Beck, Rush, Hannity and FOX.
And Palin’s reality farce was cancelled today. Fitting.
anghus: you’re boring if you miss lex’s creepy shit.
Nicol and Makk VH: Please tell me what progressive, liberal or card-carrying communist firebrand has fatally shot a Tea Partier, conservative and/or Pro-Life activist in the US during the past, oh, 25 years or so?
Someone decent might think @SarahPalinUSA would have something to say about a dead girl Piper’s age, instead of pimping her show.
Christian, he’s Dooley from King of the Hill. This sort of stuff would never interest him because this kind of stuff… [Dooley voice] “sucks”.
In all fairness to Sarah Palin — and, wow, there’s a phrase I never thought I would write — could be she pulled the plug on the show herself. Because if you think about it: This time next year, she may be involved in another project.
yawn
She ain’t running for president. She’s a coward.
Keil: If I went on to a thread that was about the race for Best Actor, and posted what you just posted, I would expect to have someone respond: “If you’re not interested, why the hell did you post on this thread, jerk?” And I would expect someone else to respond: “You pathetic moron. You’re contributing nothing to the conversation. Are you that desperate for attention?”
Just sayin’.
Joe, indeed. Seriously, an elected representative was almost assassinated today. Excuse some of us for being pissed and down right upset by what happened. Fucking depth of a puddle, you two. A fucking puddle.
Christian: You really think that? I am not saying I disagree. Just wondering why you think so.
J.L, I remember on 9/11, there was someone on a board I frequented from Scandinavia who said, “Wow, this is better than a movie! I’m getting some popcorn!” so there are worse reactions, I suppose. Not many, though.
Palin can run but she can’t hide. This tragedy might be the turning point against such rhetoric from her and her cuse in arms, Michella Bachman .
Offended by Sarah Palin’s “hit list” and the violence against Congresswoman Giffords? Don’t just post your thoughts here – contact Palin directly, at:
Office of Sarah Palin
PO Box 871235
Wasilla, AK 99687
She doesn’t like scrutiny. She won’t be able to escape the press or off the cuff questions. She bailed on her governor’s position to make bank instead of challenging Obama as an elected official. I don’t think she ever wants to publicly debate after Biden. And she’s disliked by a majority of the nation. Even she knows this. I think. She has George Will and Krauthammer slagging her now to boot. After today, regardless of the shooter’s wacked Libertarian paranoia, she’s on her final slide to ignominy.
Tasteless. I recall hearing about this graphic, but now, with what has happened… Ugh.
Reminds me of 2008 when McCain and his people had to reel her bloodthirst in. A bit.
I remember when, back in 2008, someone described Sarah Palin to me as looking like “the MILF who fucks her son’s best friend in a porn video.” Can’t say I have ever been able to take her seriously since then.
While I’m no fan of Palin, I do think that her accomplishments are worthy of grudging respect. She’s certainly more adept at holding the national attention more than any other vice presidential candidate in recent memory, even if you violently disagree with the political views for which she advocates. Opponents take her lightly at their peril.
Given the Palin-lookalike porn that has emerged over the last few years, Leydon’s friend certainly isn’t alone in his description. But marginalising her based on how she looks doesn’t speak very highly of open-mindedness.
I think this is a bit dishonest. The dude was a crazy person. This reminds me more of people blaming movies and music for murders than anything else. Any criticism of Palin and that map is fair, but using this shooting as supporting evidence is bullshit.
It’s not necessarily that the TEA party and Palin’s views align with the shooter that has people blaming them, it’s how they created an environment where the idea of shooting a US Representative might catch hold in the mind of some deranged individual.
If you portray a person as being a target for assassination, even just for the purpose of rhetoric, guess what, someone might believe you and take a shot at them. Palin and her ilk aimed this lunatic at Giffords.
It’s only going to get worse. I can only imagine how sickening the defensive weaseling from the Fox News demagogues will be.
“The dude was a crazy person…”
so why is a crazy person allowed to have a gun? why is it that loon after mass-murdering loon is allowed deadly weapons? something stinks in your gun laws/enforcement. crazy fuckers slipping thru the cracks left right and centre to inflict carnage on the populous, all because during the revolution the ‘citizen militia’ were guaranteed the right to bear arms in the guerilla fight against the british. newsflash: the revolutionary war is over, you won. put away the fucking firearms already.
at any rate until the second man is found the motivation for this latest massacre remains unclear, but from what i’ve read/seen so far the ‘crazy man’ would appear to have deliberately targeted the congresswoman likely because of the serious bug he had up his delusional ass about immigration, so that IS political, not just some random shooting.
and even if it’s just a coincidence that palin reportedly issued mailers with violent sentiments directed at giffords for her removal from office and then she is shot in the head, the climate of fear and intimidation and thuggery spearheaded by palin is inexplicably, deeply fucked-up. shameful.
foamy, normally i’d likely agree with you about marginalising palin based on her looks, but i think it’s probably fair to speculate that palin’s rather deliberate ‘naughty librarian/hot-for-teacher’ look that men in particular seem to be suckers for, is an inextricable part of her political persona and appeal – even men that seems to despise palin still inexplicably find her shaggable, kinda reminds me of the crazy-ass chicks who’d say osama bin laden was a bit of handsome after september 11, just way bizarre.
sad to say but i can’t help but conclude the way palin looks is one of reasons she’s come as far as she has, which is deeply troubling because the simple fact is, THE WOMAN IS A MORON. plain and simple. not because she’s a republican or conservative or anything political, there are plenty of very intelligent conservatives, but because she’s a dim freakin bulb any way you slice it, and many republicans seem to think so as well. cunning and well-rehearsed, yes; even remotely intelligent or insightful, no. and this is why she isn’t quite stillson, but her winking/blathering cult of heavily armed dumb with all its dipshit followers is perhaps just as dangerous.
(and before anyone freaks out that a non-american should express an opinion on this matter, i have family there and i don’t want my little 6th cousins and such to be shot to hell by some mental case with an automatic, so it matters to me on a personal level what goes down)
Can we at least wait until there’s some evidence that Loughner was even aware of Take Back the 20 before claiming “Palin and her ilk aimed this lunatic at Giffords”?
C’mon, we’ve all watched enough procedurals to know you have to establish the link first.
but foamy, even if law enforcement fails to establish concrete evidence of a link, that doesn’t mean there isn’t one. loughner deliberately targeted giffords according to the sheriff, so a political motivation seems assured
Foamy, since when did actual facts have ANYTHING to do with Fuax News and Palin, Beck etc rhetoric?
I don’t particularly care what Fox/Palin/Tea Party do regarding about facts – I care what I do regarding facts. I’ve got an opinion that Palin is a complete idiot, but I also don’t like to jump to conclusions that the facts don’t support.
Politics != Party Politics. From everything reported so far, Loughner’s beef was with “currency” (he apparently wanted coins minted from gold) and “illiteracy” (he apparently said “only 5% of people are literate”… which, ironically, probably means he’s not one of them). He believed “the government” was trying to undertake mind control, but there’s no particular evidence that he thought either Republicans or Democrats were responsible, nor that it was the product specifically of the Obama administration or the Democrat congress.
There’s no evidence to show he was following the current election narratives, as none of his youtube ramblings feature any party rhetoric. The closest approximation is the Simpsons episode where Bart believed Major League Baseball was spying on him.
Over the next few days it could well turn out that he was a devoted, if deranged, Tea Party member and he was specifically inspired by Palin… but at this point in time there’s no evidence to even say that he was aware that Palin’s Take Back the 20 campaign existed. Anyone linking Palin with Loughner without facts to back it up are making as wild assumptions as Beck does with his chalkboard.
if you stir the pot long and hard enough, you end up with some spillage.
welcome to consequence.
Leahnz: Actually, quite a few commentators — on both sides of the political divide — have opined that Sarah Palin’s looks have been of immeasurable help to her in her comparatively rapid advancement. (During the 2008 presidential race, at least one commentator at National Review Online gushed that, while watching her speak, he thought she was winking directly at him.) To be sure, there’s nothing new under the sun: Politicians have been attractively packaging themselves for decades, and even JFK traded on his good looks to charm voters. But I’ve always felt there’s something a bit too obviously calculated about Palin’s flirty-foxy MILF come-on.
Forgive me for engaging in excessive speculation, but isn’t it possible that the alleged second suspect, a man in his 40s, holds key answers concerning the shooter’s motives? I imagine that a deeply disturbed 22 year-old with anti-government views could easily be manipulated and controlled by an older person. Of course it’s way too early to know for sure, but it seems like a real possibility if there really is a second person involved.
The shooter’s online ramblings don’t mean squat in terms of what finally motivated him to act. Without tying him directly to Palin’s map, it’s quite conceivable that an unbalanced mind was swayed by the general tenor and tone of the rhetoric bandied about against Gifford. Or, as Paul notes, his malleable intellect was indeed influenced by an older person like the alleged 2nd person of interest.
In any case, this is the flashpoint for a new dialogue about gun control and the danger of inflammatory rhetoric from office seekers regarding putting opponents in gun sights. There are too many undereducated citizens in this country whose minds have been warped by religious belief, immersive violence in video games, etc, to risk using the kind of language that the right wing pols and media stars have used the last few years. It’s not reasoned discourse, it’s a call to violence, and whatever this kid’s “politics” were, he’s now the poster child for dialing it back.
Fox News and Politico are reporting that the shooter may have been involved in an anti-Semitic, anti-government white nationalist hate group called American Renaissance. Giffords is Jewish.
If Palin’s website is in poor taste after Giffords was shot than it was in poor taste before she was shot. Just because this incident is not directly related to Palin’s site and rhetoric does not give her and her ilk a free pass. This is like a drunk driver refusing to change their irresponsible behavior because so far they haven’t personally run anyone down yet.
http://www.mediaite.com/online/sarahpac-website-hit-list-image-that-included-target-on-giffords-district-kos-post-remains/
Sarah Palin and Daily Kos targeted her. Moderates are an endangered species.
The shooter listed Mein Kampf as one of his favorites books. Giffords is Jewish.
He wanted US currency to be backed by the gold standard (Glenn Beck fan!) and wants In God We Trust off of them. (Bill Maher fan!)
We’ll learn more over the next few days. Remember how the media got a lot wrong in those first few days of Columbine.
Daily Kos did not target her. This is the most pathetic attempt at spin the right has attempted from this. It’s ONE DIARY saying a common phrase, “She’s dead to me.” Giffords was in no way “targeted” on Daily Kos — I site I find typically hyperbolic.
Yes the shooter was a loony. And the bigger question and dialogue that our nation KEEPS AVOIDING is why we allow unfettered access to deadly firepower in this age. Fuck the NRA.
And fuck the GOP who repeatedly and consistently used loaded hunting language to describe their bigoted “take back the country” bullshit. Palin tweeted “DON’T RETREAT – RELOAD!” among other bon mots. And the FBI already warned us that right-wing militia groups were a threat as many recent shootings have shown us.
Let the GOP sink in their own anti-life rhetoric.
Two parties can play this game!
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171
filmsofdust: fuck off back to HE, desperate fool
EPIC FAIL
that map in your link has ARCHERY targets on STATES to symbolise where to concentrate effort for demographic gain in traditional weak spots.
palin’s map has GUNSIGHT CROSSHAIRS trained on the locations where you can find a very specific LIST OF PEOPLE, candidates that palin and her ilk want REMOVED, and they have a PRESCRIPTION for it.
one is pinpointing areas for demographic gain, the other is (gun) targets on where very specific PEOPLE can be located, people who are a “problem” that needs to be “solved”. if you can’t tell the very grave and important difference between the two, you need to go back to grade school and smarten up.
Roger Ebert posted this great link to a Michelle Malkin (conservative writer) article: http://bit.ly/gzmZ5X Topic: how liberals are just as guilty of this kind of evil rhetoric. You don’t need to read her article, the pictures tell the dishearting story.
Yes Michael… but that read… no one thinks there aren’t whacked extremists on both sides… but this kind of rhetoric has become mainstreamed on Fox News and elsewhere. That is the concern.
The Palin gunsights is a perfect example. Obviously not the cause of this shooting. But when you use gun metaphors all the time with a wink and a nod, you’re playing with fire. Even if this crazy kid thought Sarah Palin was speaking to him in his head and followed her in what he thought was detail by parsing things she had said, he’d be crazy and it would not be her direct fault. But the constant tone of “Democratic HATE towards Republicans,” “We have to fight to win back our country from them,” etc, etc, etc, is not okay.
Republicans as victims that need to rise up against the cruel lefties who want to steal this country from under the feet of hard working Americans who don’t want to hand it all to the thieving immigrants… it’s absurd, it’s full of anger, and it’s dangerous.
The obvious irony is that the GOP think the health care that could help folks like Loughner is tyranny but Loughner having unfettered access to guns is freedom.
having just perused that link to malkin, there’s nothing particularly shocking there; civil disobedience and protest rhetoric and imagery has always been fierce and ugly and volatile with the possibly of violence erupting when strong emotions simmer close to the surface, particularly when the police as ‘enforcers’ are involved.
but isn’t it very important to consider WHAT is being protested? what has caused such outrage in the populace to be driven to protest?
protest of bush (and by association mccain/palin) for:
an unjustified, unnecessary WAR based on lies and deceit and hidden agendas, in which hundreds of thousands of PEOPLE have been KILLED, a small group of corrupt businesses have made a great deal of money, the outrageous curtail of rights to privacy for the general citizenry in its wake, torture and abuse of ‘suspects’, just for a start
protest of obama for: health care for everyone, not just the wealthy
gee, one makes sense in the context of civil disobedience. the other is batshit INSANE
That’s the thing Leah: the other side does not get and has never gotten Civil Disobedience. They really think that’s the worst thing in the world but referring to the Prez as the JOKER makes a lot sense to them.
well, people have always been driven to civil disobedience. ignoring the context of WHAT and WHY people are protesting is absolutely bizarre.
the protest of an administration led by a man who is clearly not very bright and engaged in starting an unjustified war responsible for the deaths of massive numbers of civilians and the needles deaths of thousands of soldiers is entirely understandable, the hatred and vitriol aimed at bush should be expected.
the protest of an administration for trying to get health care for everyone is… crazy. everybody knows the hatred and vitriol aimed at obama is insidious, rooted in racism. a man demonised for trying to look after the health of every citizen is simply NOT RATIONAL, and would never have occurred if the prez was a white man named smith. anyone who thinks otherwise is floating down that river in eqypt big-time.
equating the vitriolic protest of a president who started a war with the vitriolic protest of a president who tried to improve health care as being anything close to being equally justified is, quite simply, mental.
Yep.
Old right-wing CW: I’m right, you’re wrong.
New right-wing CW: I’m right, you’re evil and must die violently.
Cad, that’s pretty much how it works these days.
Leahnz – You seem to be saying that “vitriolic protest” is OK for your side (because you’re justified) and BAD for their side (cause they’re war-mongering weasels). Your posts seem just as irrational as the crazy rants I would find on Fox News. If the crap Palin puts out is “dangerous rhetoric” (and I think it is), so were protests that called for Bush’s death. The “it’s ok because they’re evil” card gets played by both sides, and it makes me sad.
Michael, you fail to grasp the differences between POLITICIANS IN CONGRESS who called for “blood covenants” to stop Health Care, or investigations to suss out the Real Americans along with the non-stop taunts of 2ND AMENDMENT REMEDIES while the FBI warns of militia groups arming themselves. Find me a leftist equivalent. NOW.
Christian – Five minutes of Googling got me this Oct 2010 quote from U.S. Rep. Paul Kanjorski (D) – “That Scott down there that’s running for governor of Florida, instead of running for governor of Florida, they ought to have him and shoot him. Put him against the wall and shoot him.” I can find more if you like.
My only point here is that this is a issue that spans all spectrums of US political discourse and we should take a moment to reflect on how “our side” has contributed to the problem.
Yeah, two wrongs still don’t make a right dillhole, and I am sure the democratic leadership yelled at this wingnut unlike the repcon leadership and their teabaggers.
IOv3 – How I am I arguing that something is “right”? (Also – why do you think I’m a dillhole?)
Michael, if it took you FIVE MINUTES to Google that example, that should tell you something. Again, the left tends to favor Gun Control and the repeated unsubtle threats of gun revolution was on the side of the GOP/Tea Party along with the number of right-wing attacks in the past two years. And from a Republican POV, how ironic they fight for the rights of ANYBODY to get a gun and they freaked when in a post 9/11 world there should be some accountability with hand-held weapons of mass destruction. Palin did not cause Laughner — but a crazed gun culture propogated by GOP/Tea Party threats of anti-government violence contributes to the unstable atmosphere.
Who said in 2008 that Obama was “pallin’ around with terrorists”? The GOP’s VP candidate.
what?
no, michael, my post is not irrational, your post is ridiculous.
you completely miss the point, a victim of the new propaganda, the great myth that it doesn’t matter WHAT you are fighting for, that all vitriolic protest is the same, no matter what the issues or context, or what is at stake. wake up! context is ALWAYS key.
the citizenry protesting war has helped END wars. WAR is hate and death, the scourge of humanity since year dot (and yet it is also BIG BUSINESS. funny that!). the protest of a warmonger president by the citizenry in various forms is EXACTLY as it should be, it means people are, at least in part, AWAKE and willing to stand up for what is right, to express in many forms that being led into an unnecessary war by lies and deceit and ineptitude won’t be tolerated.
civil disobedience is not always pleasant and violent imagery/rhetoric is sometimes used to shock in social commentary, but to pretend that the bush/anti-war movement was even remotely about calling for bush’s death is an inexcusable warping of the truth. of course there were those extreme instances of individuals calling for the death of those who deal out death from the safety of behind their gold-plated desks, this is as it’s ALWAYS been in the protest of war and those who cause it throughout history, but those who went to this extreme are the exception and by no means definitive of the anti-war anti-bush movement, and insinuating as much is grossly irresponsible.
there IS such a thing as a righteous cause, there is such a thing as right and wrong, and deluding yourself otherwise is a very dangerous slippery slope.
when exactly was the moment that the good fight – the fight against tyranny and those who seek to deceive for their own agendas and selfish gain and engage in the lowest form of human barbarism leading to immeasurable death and despair – when did that righteous fight became the same as a that of a bunch of ignorant, hate-filled gun-toting bigots going after a leader who is trying to make HEALTH CARE available to all the citizenry, the demonisation of a man by a group of weak-minded, fearful, paranoid racists for trying to bring more equality in heath care to his country, a country in DIRE need of a decent health care policy?
the reaction of people becoming angry that their country has been duped into an unnecessary, unjust WAR is NOT the same as irrational, ignorant heavily armed bigots/racists going after the first black president in an unprecedented display of stupidity, for having the gal to want good health for his country. sorry, NOT the same. you can say it is until the cows come home, but you’d just be silly for longer.
and that people can’t see the difference in the value of the civil disobedience on display is, frankly, quite frighting. equating the two forms of civil disobedience, anti-war/bush protests and the protest of health care by hate-filled bigots, as equally undesirable is absolute NONSENSE and frankly outrageous, displaying the lowest form of critical thinking.
(so micheal, you found one distasteful example of one democrat whom i’ve not heard of make one comment about shooting someone, and yet you think this equates to the reams of violent rhetoric engaged in by elected officials such as palin and her ilk used in public forums to fire up the gun-toting base? you honestly think the two things are even remotely comparable? this is not about one stupid comment here and there, this is about volume and consistency, about deliberately creating a CLIMATE of fear using repeated violent imagery and words to incite ‘the base’. show me any example anywhere of democrats doing this michael. not one comment here and there, but a the creation of a climate of fear and hatred. i’ll look forward to it)
From NPR: “The night before Gabrielle Giffords and others were gunned down, she was thinking about how to calm down the kind of inflammatory rhetoric she’d experienced in her recent campaign. And so this Democratic Congresswoman reached out to a Republican… she wanted to talk to him about what they could do to get beyond harsh political attacks and promote moderation.”
I know this is crazy, but can’t we can discuss the good and bad choices of Democrats and Republicans, of Obama and Bush, without declaring anyone a terrorist,racist or nutjob. Yes, crazed gun-toting bigots exist, but labeling conservatives in general as such is naive and unhelpful.
Look, I’m not a Republican. I just don’t like hypocrisy. Not to be religious, but we could learn from the old Sunday school lesson, “First take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the plank from your brother’s eye.”
Leahnz – please note that Sarah Palin is thankfully a former Governor, and no longer an elected official. Also, if you can provide examples of how to properly document an elected-official-created “climate of fear”, that would help me reply to your comments.
David – I meant to reply to your earlier comment – I think you are right about the “read”; I just found the raw examples convicting. I’m generally a silent lurker, but I’ve been a reader since RoughCut.com and I have always appreciated your balance of moderation and passion in political discussion.
“Yes, crazed gun-toting bigots exist, but labeling conservatives in general as such is naive and unhelpful.”
please point out anywhere that i have labelled conservatives in general as gun toting bigots. was it not extremely obvious i’m talking about the teaparty and their ilk, with their ignorant, deluded, hateful fixation on obama as a foreign muslim opponent of freedom and general bad black man hell bent on destroying the US for decent white people?
no sarah palin is no longer an elected official. my bad. funny how she’s still doing videos and making political statements and maps with cross hairs on elected officials and behaving as if she is a politician. weird.
as to how to properly document an elected-official-created climate of fear: i think that’s down to you michael, since you’re the one arguing that liberals are just as responsible. you provided with a single annecdotal example but apparently ran out of steam.
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